Problems Believing Our Lady of Fatima

[HailStarofSea]

Originally Posted by ethereality

I'm reading Walsh's Our Lady of Fatima to learn more about the revelations, seeking to affirm my faith in God and to learn His will. I have some problems believing (may God forgive me for voicing temptation and doubt, and I suppose these questions are largely from a Protestant perspective), which I hope you can help resolve:[list][*]She asks the children to make themselves suffer, and leaves them feeling exhausted. How is this different from "Gabriel" appearing to Mohammed? Catholic Answers LIVE periodically has a guest who talks about it (I think jihadwatch.org is his website), how the presence would "press him terribly", almost suffocating him, and command him to recite. We conclude it was a demonic presence, and yet something similar happened here, 'recite' in this case being prayers which leads me to a second problem:

Mary and the demons are at war. This site will give you a greater sense of why it seems both Mary and the demons seem to want to make us suffer.

“The Blessed Virgin has selected a little army of noble souls who are prepared to suffer everything and to offer themselves freely to God as a holocaust in atonement for souls. She has selected them to fight directly against the demons. They will break the might of Lucifer's legions upon earth and will deprive him of at least a part of the victims he already counts as his own.

"These selected souls will bear up courageously under the attacks of the demons. They will suffer possession in order to free the souls of fellowmen from the yoke of the evil one. They take the place of the guilty to free them from the power of the demon who has darkened their understanding and who is trying to harden their misguided will. It is a worldwide battle between the ferocity of the demon and the victim souls' love for the cross.

"The victim souls endure bodily sufferings as well as attacks directed against the sensitive powers of the soul. They will, however, conquer with their spiritual aids. Their lower nature will, so to say, be crushed by demoniacal tortures, but the higher spiritual nature will triumph over the infernal spirits through their generous submission to suffering. Their spiritual powers will increase in proportion to the amount of suffering they, endure, for in every loving suffering they will receive an increase of love.

"The power of the demons will gradually decrease, at least externally. All their energy will be exhausted in their onslaughts against these victim souls. Should the victim soul persevere in her sacrifice, then her influence will increase, and that of the demon will diminish gradually. Whence it follows that the victim soul will be victorious and the enemy will be completely crushed. The battle between such a victim soul and the demon is a real duel to the death. They are as two gladiators forced to fight until one remains a victim upon the battlefield. The demon is full of hatred towards all good.

.....


"The demons maintain that the sins of men give them power over men. They say that God permits demons to keep what they have won through the misdirected will of man, and only the free will of man can take from them what the free will of man has given them. Through the wilful suffering of victim souls the demons are deprived of that which men have given them through sin.

http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/20...arys-role.html

Have you ever seen "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" where Edmond, out of his own free will, goes over to the side of evil and the protagonists have to suffer to save him?

[MariaGoretti88]

I voted 8

[HailStarofSea]

Originally Posted by ethereality

[*]Does it not cast God as fearful judge (that we must get poor sinners "out from under His wrath") rather than loving Father?

God's justice is tied to his love. Imagine that you are a Father and one of your sons kills the rest of the family. In your love, could you allow him to go without punishment even if he never repented and would continue killing others until stopped? God always tells us to forgive, but he does not say that we forgive without reason. "Vengeance is mine," says the Lord, "I will repay." Every sin either harms God, ourself, or our neighbor.

[*]Does such a strong emphasis on hell not prevent that happiness in this life that God intends for us to have? (Cf. Jesus' sayings, e.g. "I came that they might have life, and have it to the full" / "Do not worry" / "God knows about each sparrow and you are worth more than many sparrows" / "If you know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will God give to you.")

Yes, and no. Obviously, not everyone in this life has happiness. Many are born into poverty and other unmerited sufferings that are completely preventable. Would a theology that only focused on this mortal life value them as equal people?

When Jesus talks about life, he means eternal life. No one goes to Hell without choosing it. In Fatima, it says that many of those who go are the ones who refused to believe. So warning us about Hell and Heaven gives *hope* to those who lives aren't happy for no fault of their own or even because of an unrepairable fault. It causes conversion of sinners. Slavery in the British empire ended because a slave trader was afraid of going to Hell (John Newton) when he got sick at sea.

Consistency with Bible.
John 12:25. "Whoever loves his life* loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life." Protestantism is twisted because it ignores a lot of these difficult verses. It was started in many regards because people didn't want to follow holy laws, i.e. the Church of England started for the purpose of divorce with church approval.

Matthew 7:14 "But it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Anyways, happiness comes more from living a life of virtue and from true accomplishment than it does from pursuing selfish desires. Following Jesus and Mary and having hope in a great reward in Heaven (and maybe on Earth) will make you happier than sin because you will feel good about yourself, like you are a blessing to society. Its better than placing all your eggs on life on Earth, it not panning out, and turning to sin to keep up with one's peers.

[*]Is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary not a form of idolatry? It seems like the veneration we are to give to Mary's heart is indistinguishable from the adoration many give God (particularly Jesus) regarding form or intensity. How, then, are we to know that it is veneration and not in fact adoration, if it is indistinguishable from adoration? Are we really to conclude that "Protestants and many Catholics don't worship God enough" (regarding intensity), or that the Sacrifice of the Mass is far superior (regarding form and intensity)? (... even though we may not comprehend its intensity or its form -- and this argument does make sense to me, although I question why we should be so blind: "Being blind from all the light" as Frank Sheed says seems like a "cop out": as he himself says in his _Theology and Sanity_, it would be cruel if God would reveal something and give us no way to understand it.)[/list][/list]

Read True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis de Montfort (its free online). We honor Jesus most by honoring his Mother, both because she always honors him and she is his Mother. In addition, because Jesus is perfect - that perfect Judge - and she dresses up the little that we give, like as if she put our rotten apple on a golden plate so that it looks better for Jesus.

[Friar David, O.Carm]

Originally Posted by ethereality

I'm reading Walsh's Our Lady of Fatima to learn more about the revelations, seeking to affirm my faith in God and to learn His will. I have some problems believing (may God forgive me for voicing temptation and doubt, and I suppose these questions are largely from a Protestant perspective), which I hope you can help resolve:

• She asks the children to make themselves suffer, and leaves them feeling exhausted. How is this different from "Gabriel" appearing to Mohammed? Catholic Answers LIVE periodically has a guest who talks about it (I think jihadwatch.org is his website), how the presence would "press him terribly", almost suffocating him, and command him to recite. We conclude it was a demonic presence, and yet something similar happened here, 'recite' in this case being prayers which leads me to a second problem:
• The prayers place an emphasis on us, our actions, and our intercession, as being definitive for the salvation of other poor sinners, and of Mary almost as a Second Jesus, e.g. that we must make reparations for the sins against the Immaculate Heart of Mary -- well, what does that mean? We can explain it as, "Mary is so devoted to God, that really to sin against Mary's heart is a poetic way of saying to sin against the will of God," but what of this shifting of emphasis from Jesus to Mary? So, regarding the revelations, prayers, and devotions Mary wants us to have, the following questions arise:
  • Is it right to place such importance on our actions, as if we are at least partially to blame for others going to hell? What about Jesus' saving passion? Did Jesus not do enough -- must we suffer also? Must we really make ourselves suffer, as Mary tells the children to do? (If she does not explicitly tell them to do it, they take it upon themselves and she does nothing to stop them.)
  • Does it not cast God as fearful judge (that we must get poor sinners "out from under His wrath") rather than loving Father?
  • Does such a strong emphasis on hell not prevent that happiness in this life that God intends for us to have? (Cf. Jesus' sayings, e.g. "I came that they might have life, and have it to the full" / "Do not worry" / "God knows about each sparrow and you are worth more than many sparrows" / "If you know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will God give to you.")
  • Is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary not a form of idolatry? It seems like the veneration we are to give to Mary's heart is indistinguishable from the adoration many give God (particularly Jesus) regarding form or intensity. How, then, are we to know that it is veneration and not in fact adoration, if it is indistinguishable from adoration? Are we really to conclude that "Protestants and many Catholics don't worship God enough" (regarding intensity), or that the Sacrifice of the Mass is far superior (regarding form and intensity)? (... even though we may not comprehend its intensity or its form -- and this argument does make sense to me, although I question why we should be so blind: "Being blind from all the light" as Frank Sheed says seems like a "cop out": as he himself says in his _Theology and Sanity_, it would be cruel if God would reveal something and give us no way to understand it.)

I'm on page 85 of 228; I'll finish it by 11 April. I think these questions are more than enough to start a thread with ... I'll search the forums later and post links to other relevant threads that if I find them.

As I am sure you are aware, the Church does not require belief in any private revelations.

So my question to you is why this post? I am curious?

1. Is it that you are having trouble believing in Fatima but want to believe so you want to work out the issues you have with it?
2. Or is it that you feel you have to believe in Fatima and you are having a hard time doing so?
3. Or is it that you do not believe in Fatima and you wish to sway others to your side?

If it is #1, I can understand that. If #2 then forget it as you do not have to believe. If #3, I think you should let others believe if they wish as the Church has ruled that it is "worthy of belief".

I can not really help you out on this one because I neither believe in it nor do I disbelieve in it.

[beehumble]

"Pray, pray a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because they have no one to sacrifice and pray for them."

This means we can help souls that are on the path to hell to convert. If we pray for them and make sacrifices for them (like fasting, for example), by showing such love for those 'unbelievers' God takes steps to help them, even though they of their own account don't deserve it since they, of their own free will, have spit into the face of God and turned their backs to Him. But if we do things for them, God will help them to come into the 'light'.

So of their own free will they are on the path to hell. But we can help them turn around and go on a new path.

Here is a great true story of the power of God to inspire us to do the right thing:

(Saint) Sister Faustina, a mystic of the 1930s, was having visions and discussions with Jesus, and when this got out to her fellow nuns they laughed and some thought these were all in her head - that she was going bonkers. She worked in a house for wayward girls (poor girls who had fallen into prostitution and that sort of thing), teaching them basic reading and writing and arithmetic and other skills. One morning in the class she was having a hard time with a very difficult girl who refused to obey the sisters and kept misbehaving in the class. At that moment Jesus appeared to Sister Faustina (the others of course could not see) and as He started talking to her she said to Him how the sisters said He was not really appearing to her, that it was all in her head, and she said, "If you are really here, then make that girl go to confession." Instantly, the girl raised her hand and blurted out, "I want to go to confession." "Now," the sisters asked, incredulous, their mouths agape. And she replied, "Yes, right now." Sister now Saint Faustina never doubted in the authenticity of her visions of Jesus again, no matter what others said. And the girl went to a much needed confession.

If we pray and sacrifice for sinners, God will help them, inspire them, to get off the path to hell that they have chosen. We are all in this together - we are all one family. We are our brother's keeper.

God bless you.

[AndyT_81]

Hi ethereality,

I don't have much time to respond in full, but I want to compare what Lucia relayed from the Blessed Virgin:

Pray, pray a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because they have no one to sacrifice and pray for them.

to your paraphrase of that comment from the Blessed Virgin:

If you don't offer sacrifices, someone will go to hell because of you

I have a problem with your paraphrase if it's intention is to apportion a strict causality to the person who refuses to sacrifice for the other persons damnation i.e. "because of you". This is like saying that if I don't volunteer for a suicide crisis helpline during my spare time that I am therefore responsible for some people who kill themselves - because, after all, chances are if I did help out, I might save someone from ending their life.

So how do we reconcile that with the Blessed Virgin's comments, and her use of "because"? I think we can do so by realising that "because" doesn't need to denote, in philosophical parlance, a necessary and sufficient condition for something to occur. For instance, I can say that there are many people in prison today because there is a high rate of family breakdown - and I would be expressing a truth. If marriages were universally more stable I think it would be the case that less souls would be in prison. But I would not be saying that the overriding reason Bob is in prison is because his mum and dad broke up, and therefore they are to blame for him ending up there - it was Bob's choices that landed him in prison. Likewise with Mary's use of "because" - any other reading I believe would undermine our notion of free will.

Anyway I hope that clears up what I was trying to get at. God bless you

[Parvana]

Originally Posted by ethereality

Another problem, from page 123 of Walsh's account, Our Lady of Fatima says, Walsh includes the footnote (after a line about the Lady's departure), "This is Lucia's recollection of the conversation, Memoir IV, p. 40."

What does this make of free will, and of Jesus' actions and the Church's mission? Again, it strikes me like, "If you don't offer sacrifices, someone will go to hell because of you," a certain oppressive doctrine that seems to stifle joy from life. It seems too much to bear. Really? People will go to hell if we don't make sacrifices? Not just offer the suffering we experience, but make them, bringing suffering upon ourselves like wearing hair shirts like the children did (that is, tying a coarse rope around their waist)?

And what of the Divine Mercy from St. Faustina Kowalska? How can we understand free will and intercession? How is Our Lady's statement supposed to be understood?

It strikes me as possibly demonic because the implication seems to be: God's not in control. You are. If you make sacrifices and pray for them, they'll go to heaven. If you don't, they'll go to hell. This is the implication of the statement: they go to hell because no one is making sacrifices and praying for them -- that they go to hell because of our lack of action, not because of their own actions. Even if it's a matter of both/and, not either/or, how is it right to say, "This person is a criminal, therefore you should suffer"?

Am I misunderstanding something? What am I missing? What are your thoughts?

I am so glad this question was asked, because I am wondering the exact same things about this apparition. Your concerns were clearly put forth, and no one seems to be addressing them very well. To add to yours, I question the part where Jesus is deeply offended and it is only Mary staying his wrathful hand. And I agree that the part where the children whip themselves and wear the ropes is disturbing. Why would Mary not tell them that this is not what she wants them to do? I am new to Catholicism and just started RCIA, but I have studied tons of literature about Mary and pray the Rosary several times a week, and in my experience, this apparition just doesn't sound like Mary. And theologically, while our prayers for those in purgatory do help, we have no direct power over whether someone else goes to heaven or hell.

[jumpfrog]

Pray, pray a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because they have no one to sacrifice and pray for them.

I sent a message to Fr.Vincent Serpa about this very issue...he basically said that Mary was just telling the children of the importance to pray for others and offer sacrifices for others in a way that the children could understand. Mary wasn't making a dogmatic statement, just bringing the mystery of salvation and the ways we have of participating in the salvation of the world down to a kid-sized level of intellect. They were simple people, not theologians. so she told them in a simple and unnuanced way.

That is really the best and most logical explanation I have ever heard.

[louisak]

Originally Posted by jumpfrog

I sent a message to Fr.Vincent Serpa about this very issue...he basically said that Mary was just telling the children of the importance to pray for others and offer sacrifices for others in a way that the children could understand. Mary wasn't making a dogmatic statement, just bringing the mystery of salvation and the ways we have of participating in the salvation of the world down to a kid-sized level of intellect. They were simple people, not theologians. so she told them in a simple and unnuanced way.

I agree with this. Also remember that the children recounted Mary's words later, relying on their memories. I'm sure that what they recounted was essentially accurate, but still they were using their own words, not necessarily repeating Mary's words verbatim. And of course they did not speak English, so it is possible that some nuances were lost in the translation from Portuguese.

[InJesusItrust]

I believe it 100% and that Mary will crush the Devil's head.

I believe that God is one God in both testaments, and He is both Justice and Mercy, and I also believe piety and prayer are important so I have no problem.. I can see how someone with a modern conception of God can have a problem though.

[Seamus L]

Yes, and it's one of my favorite devotions. I've read Walsh's book at least 4 times.

[nordskoven]

Genesis 3:15 is called the Proto-Evangelium, or pre-Gospel. God Himself curses Lucifer and his seed with the enmity of the Woman & Seed. This Woman & Seed mandate was widely incorporated into orthodox law and custom in the ancient world, and is still culturally extant in things like the Hebrews accounting their lineage through the mother only.


Father William G. Most used to ask, "Why was Jesus Jewish?" In other words, why was Jesus Christ One of the Chosen People, and qualified to forensically confect the long-promised New & Eternal Covenant? Father Most's answer? "Jesus was Jewish because Mary was Jewish." This is the Woman & Seed formula of the Proto-Evangelium. This is the familial heart of the Good News. We are family, an assertion that scandalized those who heard Christ calling to "Abba."


In John's Apocalypse 12 it says, "A great sign appeared in the heavens; a woman clothed with the Sun..." Father Thomas McGlynn, who created the marble statue of Our Lady under the direction of Sister Lucia, made her gown wavy to denote Lucia's assertion that her gown was as bright as the Sun. The Fatima apparitions fulfill John 12's "great sign." In it, the Woman & Seed are persecuted, with her "other children" being persecuted as well. Why are Catholics ingrafted, adopted into the Chosen People? Because we are the Virgin Mary's "other children" in Apocalypse 12.


Under her title of Our Lady of the Rosary, the Virgin Mary appeared to three peasant children in Fatima, Portugal, in 1917. This was preceded by the apparition of the Angel of Peace, who later helped shape their formation in prayer and fasting. Christ Himself told apostles vexed by not being able to drive out devils, "This kind goes not out except by fasting." Christ taught the necessary efficacy of fasting to conquer Satan.

Our Lady's singular message? "God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart." Created sinless as Eve in her Immaculate Conception, it is the Virgin Mary's faith response flowing from her perfect purity of intent, her Immaculate Heart, that kept her sinless, and what God wishes to exalt. "Do whatever He says." Hear and obey in love.
Here's Sister Lucia's autobiography:
http://www.amazon.com/Fatima-Lucias-.../dp/0911218106

[nordskoven]

There is no "Our Lady of Fatima" or "Our Lady of Lourdes" and one misfires from the first in adopting this widespread pop cultural language. Our Lady of the Rosary repeatedly asked the three seers, and us, "Pray the daily Rosary for peace." We interface our lives with Christ's through the eyes of one who had the most perfect faith formation, and with her we "ponder these things" in our hearts.

What standard has to be met? Will it matter to your faith? Is this a "pearls before swine" exercise? Will explaining the Biblical and Church consonance of: Our Lady's divine messages in her appearances to the children; her foretold Miracle of the Sun seen by 100,000; her accurate prophecy regarding the errors of Russia leading to the "annihilation of nations"; and her promised period of peace with the requested episcopal consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart; matter to people who are jaded? If somebody is mad at God Who will chose to limit His justice and temper it with mercy because of our fasting and praying, any further response is a fool's errand.

Yes, one may note that angelic visitations can include fallen angels, arguably the case with two notable angelic apparitions in two religions today that promote or first promoted "child brides" and polygamy. May we actively protect children and monogamy. Seems obvious if that's where Satan attacks. But our Creator from the first has notified and informed us of the Woman & Seed mandate, and told us 2,000 years ago through John that there would be a miracle of the Woman (capitalized here as the Genesis 3:15 title Christ used exclusively in speaking of His mother) appearing in the sky clothed with the Sun.

Most High God, we ask all those priests now in Your eternal Kingdom who embraced the message of the Fatima apparitions, including that household of eight priests who survived to old age the 1945 nuke in Japan, sculptor Father Thomas McGlynn, peasant-scholar Father John deMarchi, Pius XII and all other prelates now joining You in Heaven, to shepherd us still, and to "enlighten the eyes of our hearts" and move us to understanding Your divine will that we may lovingly hear and obey, as Your ways are not our ways. Thanks. AMEN

[TuAutem]

Originally Posted by AndyT_81

This is like saying that if I don't volunteer for a suicide crisis helpline during my spare time that I am therefore responsible for some people who kill themselves - because, after all, chances are if I did help out, I might save someone from ending their life.

So how do we reconcile that with the Blessed Virgin's comments, and her use of "because"? I think we can do so by realising that "because" doesn't need to denote, in philosophical parlance, a necessary and sufficient condition for something to occur. For instance, I can say that there are many people in prison today because there is a high rate of family breakdown - and I would be expressing a truth. If marriages were universally more stable I think it would be the case that less souls would be in prison. But I would not be saying that the overriding reason Bob is in prison is because his mum and dad broke up, and therefore they are to blame for him ending up there - it was Bob's choices that landed him in prison. Likewise with Mary's use of "because" - any other reading I believe would undermine our notion of free will.

These are excellent analogies.

I just wanted to add that, while, as many have said, no one is required to believe in a private revelation, and Fatima is not therefore Catholic dogma, there is a flip side to that coin that Catholics ought to respect:

The Church has declared that there is nothing demonic, nothing heretical, in these apparitions. That is, all the theological questions that the OP is wrestling with have been analysed in detail by expert theologians, bishops, and (in the case of Fatima particularly so) popes. They all agree that there is nothing contrary to the faith in what has been reported of these apparitions.

Therefore, while no Catholic should feel obliged to believe in this or any other private revelation, I think it is also true that no Catholic can presume to call it demonic or even potentially demonic.

That said, there's nothing wrong with the OP questioning the theological content of the visions, and asking whether it really does match up with Christian truth! It is only by asking such questions that we can learn the answers. (Rather like asking how Our Lady can be called "ever-Virgin" when the Lord's "brothers" are mentioned in Mark 3:31--it's a legitimate question, to ask what the explanation is, but it would be going too far to take the position that the Church's explanations are false.) Therefore I encourage the OP to think about these things seriously, but to take seriously the fact that, as in the post I quoted above, there are good explanations to all the difficulties. The Fatima visions would never have received the strong papal support that they did if every aspect of them had not been vetted and tried carefully in the crucible of truth.

[in_servitude]

Originally Posted by nordskoven

There is no "Our Lady of Fatima" or "Our Lady of Lourdes" and one misfires from the first in adopting this widespread pop cultural language.

I'm under the impression that when the Church decided to comment on the events at Fatima, they used the term "Our Lady of Fatima" to refer to Mary who appeared to the children.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...fatima_en.html

Here's a quote from the Vatican's site:

In order that the faithful may better receive the message of Our Lady of Fatima, the Pope has charged the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith with making public the third part of the “secret�, after the preparation of an appropriate commentar.

Maybe I missed your point. Is your point in line with the Church's discussion regarding Fatima?