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  #1  
Old Jul 26, '05, 7:24 am
iamrefreshed iamrefreshed is offline
 
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Default 12 Apostles

This thread is meant to show our Muslim friends just how strong the Holy Spirit is. This is what happened to the 12 Apostles of Jesus:

1- Andrew - crucified
2- Bartholomew- beaten then crucified
3- James- stoned to death
4- John- exiled, died of old age
5- James- beheaded
6- Judas(not Iscariot) - stoned to death
7- Matthew- speared to death
8- Peter - crucified upside down
9- Philip - crucified
10- Simon - crucified
11- Thomas- speared to death
12- Matthias- stoned to death


11 of 12 met horrible deaths all because they would not forsake Jesus. What gave them such strength?

These are the same men who denied Jesus before His crucifixion. Why would they deny Him him out of fear before His death yet be willing to die for him later?

Please think about this.
  #2  
Old Jul 26, '05, 7:42 am
hawk hawk is offline
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Default Re: 12 Apostles

Exactly.
  #3  
Old Jul 26, '05, 8:29 am
Wildgraywolf's Avatar
Wildgraywolf Wildgraywolf is offline
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Join Date: August 10, 2004
Posts: 1,349
Religion: Latin Rite Catholic
Default Re: 12 Apostles

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamrefreshed
This thread is meant to show our Muslim friends just how strong the Holy Spirit is. This is what happened to the 12 Apostles of Jesus:

1- Andrew - crucified
2- Bartholomew- beaten then crucified
3- James- stoned to death
4- John- exiled, died of old age
5- James- beheaded
6- Judas(not Iscariot) - stoned to death
7- Matthew- speared to death
8- Peter - crucified upside down
9- Philip - crucified
10- Simon - crucified
11- Thomas- speared to death
12- Matthias- stoned to death


11 of 12 met horrible deaths all because they would not forsake Jesus. What gave them such strength?

These are the same men who denied Jesus before His crucifixion. Why would they deny Him him out of fear before His death yet be willing to die for him later?

Please think about this.
I'm sure Muslims would respond to this by saying that: "None of the apostles died that way: Crucified?, Stoned?, Speared? Beheaded? Surely not, but only people that looked like them. And John wasn't exiled to Patmos; he chose to live there. Oh, and Jesus wasn't crucified; sombody else was."
__________________
"In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God. ...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

Pax!
  #4  
Old Jul 26, '05, 8:42 am
Booklover Booklover is offline
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Talking Re: 12 Apostles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildgraywolf
I'm sure Muslims would respond to this by saying that: "None of the apostles died that way: Crucified?, Stoned?, Speared? Beheaded? Surely not, but only people that looked like them. And John wasn't exiled to Patmos; he chose to live there. Oh, and Jesus wasn't crucified; sombody else was."
Yes, Judas I believe!
  #5  
Old Jul 26, '05, 10:31 am
Faith101 Faith101 is offline
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Posts: 1,058
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Default Re: 12 Apostles

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamrefreshed
This thread is meant to show our Muslim friends just how strong the Holy Spirit is. This is what happened to the 12 Apostles of Jesus:

1- Andrew - crucified
2- Bartholomew- beaten then crucified
3- James- stoned to death
4- John- exiled, died of old age
5- James- beheaded
6- Judas(not Iscariot) - stoned to death
7- Matthew- speared to death
8- Peter - crucified upside down
9- Philip - crucified
10- Simon - crucified
11- Thomas- speared to death
12- Matthias- stoned to death


11 of 12 met horrible deaths all because they would not forsake Jesus. What gave them such strength?

These are the same men who denied Jesus before His crucifixion. Why would they deny Him him out of fear before His death yet be willing to die for him later?

Please think about this.
There is no being on this entire universe that has any power




except God




if you wish to separate God into 3 and say the holy spirit gives people that power..than thats your perspective. God is God and HE is the source of all power.
__________________
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 39:53)
  #6  
Old Jul 26, '05, 10:33 am
Faith101 Faith101 is offline
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Default Re: 12 Apostles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildgraywolf
I'm sure Muslims would respond to this by saying that: "None of the apostles died that way: Crucified?, Stoned?, Speared? Beheaded? Surely not, but only people that looked like them. And John wasn't exiled to Patmos; he chose to live there. Oh, and Jesus wasn't crucified; sombody else was."


Many believers where killed brutally for holding up the belief that "no one is worthy of worship but God alone." They derive their strength from their faith, which is a blessing from God. May we be united in paradise with those who gave up their lives defending the true path. Ameen
__________________
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 39:53)
  #7  
Old Jul 26, '05, 10:46 am
iamrefreshed iamrefreshed is offline
 
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Posts: 5,396
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: 12 Apostles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith101
There is no being on this entire universe that has any power




except God




if you wish to separate God into 3 and say the holy spirit gives people that power..than thats your perspective. God is God and HE is the source of all power.
Hi faith. No I do not wish to discuss the Trinity with you again. We both know your feelings on the subject.

The reason for the post was to let Muslim's know the power of the Holy Spirit and the truth of the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

I would ask any follower of Islam to open his/her mind for a moment and consider this:

These 12 men changed after Jesus was crucified.

They saw miracles while Jesus lived but still doubted Him. Don't forget, these are the same men who DENIED knowing Christ for fear of being arrested and tried along with Christ. They were AFRAID for their own lives.

Now, after seeing Jesus die, these 12 men saw Him arisen. That PROVED to these 12 men that Jesus was indeed God. After this they were willing to DIE for Jesus.

Do you see the change in their conviction before and after the Resurrection? If you had to guess at their sudden faith what would you attribute it to?
  #8  
Old Jul 26, '05, 10:49 am
Wildgraywolf's Avatar
Wildgraywolf Wildgraywolf is offline
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Join Date: August 10, 2004
Posts: 1,349
Religion: Latin Rite Catholic
Default Re: 12 Apostles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith101
There is no being on this entire universe that has any power

except God
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith101
if you wish to separate God into 3 and say the holy spirit gives people that power..than thats your perspective. God is God and HE is the source of all power.
Nope, Christians believe there's only one God.
__________________
"In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God. ...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

Pax!
  #9  
Old Jul 26, '05, 10:55 am
Wildgraywolf's Avatar
Wildgraywolf Wildgraywolf is offline
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Join Date: August 10, 2004
Posts: 1,349
Religion: Latin Rite Catholic
Default Re: 12 Apostles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith101
Many believers where killed brutally for holding up the belief that "no one is worthy of worship but God alone."
Which believers; Muslims, Jews, Christians or all three?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith101
They derive their strength from their faith, which is a blessing from God.
Amen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith101
May we be united in paradise with those who gave up their lives defending the true path. Ameen
.Which true path; Islam, Judaism, Christianity, all three?
__________________
"In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God. ...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

Pax!
  #10  
Old Jul 26, '05, 5:27 pm
iamrefreshed iamrefreshed is offline
 
Join Date: April 7, 2005
Posts: 5,396
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: 12 Apostles

I was hoping for some more Muslim comments to this thread. I know Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet but do they teach anything about the Apostles? Are they at all recognized?

If one were looking for evidence of the divinity of Jesus I think this a most compelling argument. Can it be refuted in Islam?
  #11  
Old Jul 26, '05, 5:35 pm
Genesis315 Genesis315 is offline
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Join Date: February 9, 2005
Posts: 8,654
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: 12 Apostles

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamrefreshed
I was hoping for some more Muslim comments to this thread. I know Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet but do they teach anything about the Apostles? Are they at all recognized?

If one were looking for evidence of the divinity of Jesus I think this a most compelling argument. Can it be refuted in Islam?
These guys died for what they personally witnessed. If they made it up, why would they submit themselves to such brutal deaths?

Sure, there many be many devout Muslim martyrs, but when it comes down to it, the only guy who actually got the revelation was not put to such a test. The rest have taken his word for it.

Christianity has at least 12 eyewitnesses who were put to the ultimate test and passed. Islam has one who was not tested.
__________________
"Let prayer delight thee more than disputations, and the charity which buildeth up more than the knowledge which puffeth up."--St. Robert Bellarmine
  #12  
Old Jul 26, '05, 5:44 pm
hawk hawk is offline
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Posts: 383
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: 12 Apostles

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamrefreshed
I was hoping for some more Muslim comments to this thread. I know Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet but do they teach anything about the Apostles? Are they at all recognized?

If one were looking for evidence of the divinity of Jesus I think this a most compelling argument. Can it be refuted in Islam?

The apostles are counted as righteous helpers of Isa.

However muslims will argue, that they do not know who these righteous helpers are, and may go so far as to say, that they are not the 12 we know.

They will also argue, that they do not know how these 12 died.

Anything that is not explicitly mentioned in the Quran is rejected.

However if one reads the Quran, one realises that very little is expliciltly mentioned in it.

Take the story of Moses and God.

At one point, Moses having run away from egypt for killing a man, goes to a burning bush, where he encounters God.
There is no mention of Aaron, till this point, Moses asks God, to allow Aaron to help him, suddenly Aaron is present, where before only Moses and God are present


Either way, I suppose a muslim can argue that God miraculously made Aaron appear.

To me however it is this sort of ambiguity that makes the Quran so flexible and easy to defend.

More interesting is the story of zul-qarnian.
The 2 horned one, thought to be alexander the great, by muslim scholars for ages and ages.
Zul-Qarnian is considered to be a rigtheous king, who went west and east, and he was most just and a submitter to the will of God.

However we know today, and muslims squirm and do a double take, that Alexander was an idolator , who called himself God!!!


How then does the Quran say that he is righteous?

Muslims today, are turning around on their own scholars, they say that they do not know who zul-qarnian is!

This is typical of muslims being evasive, and the quran being flexible.

However the people of the time were familiar with zul-qarnian.

The only king that was ever called the two-horned was and is Alexander.

Indeed what is even more interesting is that, that particular passage in the Quran says that Alexander found the sun setting in a pool of muddy water



You guys decide


They will question thee concerning Dhool Karnain. Say: 'I will recite to you a mention of him.' We established him in the land, and We gave him a way to everything and he followed a way until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and he found nearby a people." (Q. 18:83-86, Arberry)

In "The Christian Legend Concerning Alexander", we find that Alexander said in one of his prayers, "O God ... Thou hast made me horns upon my heads".[13] And the translator adds in a footnote that in the Ethiopic version of this legend "Alexander is always referred to as 'the two horned'"[14] It was from this Ethiopic version or a similar one that the People of the Book knew the title Zul-Qarnain. THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK DID NOT INVENT THE TITLE ZUL-QARNAIN.

The title "the two horned" i.e. Zul-Qarnain was a legendary title first. It was passed to the People of the Book from the legends second. It was put into a question to Mohammad third. And it was mentioned in Mohammad's answer fourth. What the Qur'an meant by Zul-Qarnain, is what the People of the Book meant by Zul-Qarnain when posing their question.
  #13  
Old Jul 26, '05, 7:12 pm
Faith101 Faith101 is offline
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Posts: 1,058
Religion: Muslim
Default Re: 12 Apostles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildgraywolf
Which believers; Muslims, Jews, Christians or all three?
Those people who correctly followed all the messengers sent by God and denied none of them.



.
Quote:
Which true path; Islam, Judaism, Christianity, all three?
The true path is the one that consists of understanding God, our relationship to Him, and our purpose in this life...in TRUTH. Meaning, what the reality is...not what it has been polluted to be. For me, that path is Islam.

May God guide all of us to the path that leads to the truth and to His pleasure. Ameen
__________________
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 39:53)
  #14  
Old Jul 26, '05, 7:22 pm
Faith101 Faith101 is offline
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Default Re: 12 Apostles

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamrefreshed
I was hoping for some more Muslim comments to this thread. I know Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet but do they teach anything about the Apostles? Are they at all recognized?

If one were looking for evidence of the divinity of Jesus I think this a most compelling argument. Can it be refuted in Islam?

I dont know much about the apostles..but I'll quote a verse i remember from the Quran which talk about those who helped Jesus Christ peace be upon him.


'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

"'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah.s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger. then write us down among those who bear witness." (Quran 3:50-53)


Their belief in One God and their persistence to claim that Jesus Christ was indeed a truthful messenger from that God could have gotten them killed and maybe it did. But i dont know about the number 12, Allah knows best.
__________________
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 39:53)
  #15  
Old Jul 26, '05, 7:44 pm
iamrefreshed iamrefreshed is offline
 
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Default Re: 12 Apostles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith101
I dont know much about the apostles..but I'll quote a verse i remember from the Quran which talk about those who helped Jesus Christ peace be upon him.


'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

"'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah.s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger. then write us down among those who bear witness." (Quran 3:50-53)


Their belief in One God and their persistence to claim that Jesus Christ was indeed a truthful messenger from that God could have gotten them killed and maybe it did. But i dont know about the number 12, Allah knows best.
Thank you Faith. Could you explain your belief a bit more? To start, could you explain your what you wrote and where you got it? I notice some sura quoted but not all. Does this mean you are not quoting sura?
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