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  #376  
Old Apr 15, '12, 9:45 pm
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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Originally Posted by Tampa Dave View Post
Its great being back! Mass was awesome this weekend (Divine Mercy Sunday).
Welcome home! As a convert, I can relate to the joy you must feel. Deo gratias!
  #377  
Old Apr 15, '12, 9:46 pm
Cinette Cinette is offline
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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Welcome home! As a convert, I can relate to the joy you must feel.
As a revert so can I! Praise God!

Cinette
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  #378  
Old Apr 15, '12, 10:11 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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Ya think?

Of course, non-belief has no bearing on the Truth. As Catholics, we desire all to know Jesus Christ in a very intimate way that is impossible in the Protestant churches. We pray that they will come home and be in full communion.
Yes. My broader point was while it's great for faithful Catholics to encourage the lapsed to not stay away from the sacraments, you first must understand and address the causes which may have brought about a non belief in the sacraments you are encouraging them to not stay away from. Hopefully my use of "you" meets most everyone's approval.
  #379  
Old Apr 16, '12, 5:42 am
St Francis St Francis is online now
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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Originally Posted by PPeterson View Post
I have trouble with this line of reasoning. Does that mean that when the imperfect people who make up the church feed the poor, care for the sick, etc that the church shouldn't get any credit for it? If the church is not responsible when it's members do evil, how can it claim credit for when it's members do good?
The Church teaches, calls upon, and helps members to do good.

Some people go against the teachings of the Church to do good.

Why should the Church, why should Christ Whose Body the Church is, not be credited when people do good things because of the Church?

But why should the Church be blamed when people go against the teachings of the Church and do bad things?

We are all sinners, and we all go against the teachings of the Church by sinning. That cannot be blamed on the Church. We sin because we want what we want more than what the Church teaches us. We sin because we rely on ourselves rather than on God's grace. None of this can be blamed on the Church.
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  #380  
Old Apr 16, '12, 7:58 am
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wynnejj wynnejj is offline
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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Yes. My broader point was while it's great for faithful Catholics to encourage the lapsed to not stay away from the sacraments, you first must understand and address the causes which may have brought about a non belief in the sacraments you are encouraging them to not stay away from. Hopefully my use of "you" meets most everyone's approval.
We should always advise returning to the sacraments, but with precautions...

Quote:
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.

28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.

29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

30 That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

31 If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment;

32 but since we are judged by [the] Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
And we should explain that much that we see wrong in the Catholic Church today, especially the way we are being put to shame in the public eye, has much to do with disregarding these precautions and being disciplined by Our Lord.
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  #381  
Old Apr 16, '12, 9:00 am
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

Archbishop Urges Lapsed Catholics to Leave the Faith

Comments?
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  #382  
Old Apr 16, '12, 9:14 am
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Tampa Dave Tampa Dave is offline
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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Originally Posted by rlg94086 View Post
Welcome home! As a convert, I can relate to the joy you must feel. Deo gratias!
Thank you for your kind message. Converts appreciate their new Catholic faith more than many cradle Catholics. I am very happy to return to the fold.
  #383  
Old Apr 16, '12, 9:15 am
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wynnejj wynnejj is offline
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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Originally Posted by PPeterson View Post
I have trouble with this line of reasoning. Does that mean that when the imperfect people who make up the church feed the poor, care for the sick, etc that the church shouldn't get any credit for it? If the church is not responsible when it's members do evil, how can it claim credit for when it's members do good?
We are all imperfect, so we fail to realize that the perfect reflection and cooperation with God graces and the sharing of the goods he gives us is a requirement and a duty, not extra credit. No one is "good", but we can strive for perfect reflection of God's will which is primarily getting to the point where we care about God's will more than our own (no matter what the cost), and that we truly care about others as much as ourself (someone else's needs effects us as if it were our own need). We should seek perfection as a duty, not as a credit.
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  #384  
Old Apr 16, '12, 12:23 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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The archbishop I assume believes the Church and His Body are found in the Catholic Church so it is a wonderment to me why he would encourage them to "leave".

CCC:

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ... Baptism incorporates us into the Church.

CCC 1272 and 1273 go on to say an indelible spiritual mark is placed upon a person as they are "incorporated into the Church by Baptism" and that "no sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation".

CCC seems to fit what a Catholic bishop once told me. I have his letter in front of me. It says who can rightfully be called a Catholic includes any person who received the Sacrament of Baptism as at that point they became a member of the Catholic Church. That there is a further distinction in regard to practicing or non practicing. Yet he said of course being practicing does not exclude the possibilty of sin in one's life. And that a Baptized Catholic would still be considered a Catholic, albeit perhaps a non practicing one.
  #385  
Old Apr 16, '12, 12:33 pm
ComputerGeek25 ComputerGeek25 is offline
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
The archbishop I assume believes the Church and His Body are found in the Catholic Church so it is a wonderment to me why he would encourage them to "leave".

CCC:

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ... Baptism incorporates us into the Church.

CCC 1272 and 1273 go on to say an indelible spiritual mark is placed upon a person as they are "incorporated into the Church by Baptism" and that "no sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation".

CCC seems to fit what a Catholic bishop once told me. I have his letter in front of me. It says who can rightfully be called a Catholic includes any person who received the Sacrament of Baptism as at that point they became a member of the Catholic Church. That there is a further distinction in regard to practicing or non practicing. Yet he said of course being practicing does not exclude the possibilty of sin in one's life. And that a Baptized Catholic would still be considered a Catholic, albeit perhaps a non practicing one.
If they are non-practising in some way, they are catholic in name only
  #386  
Old Apr 16, '12, 12:42 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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Originally Posted by ComputerGeek25 View Post
If they are non-practising in some way, they are catholic in name only
Well sure perhaps so but that doesn't mean under Church teaching that the Church doesn't identify them as Catholic. So what I would find interesting is if a practicing Catholic says a Baptized, some of them even confirmed, non practicing Catholic is not really Catholic, how that makes the practicing one fully in communion themselves with Church teaching if Church teaching says the nons are still Catholics.
  #387  
Old Apr 16, '12, 1:23 pm
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wynnejj wynnejj is offline
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

Yes, but sacraments are not empty rituals. If one is treating a sacrament as if it is an empty ritual, then one needs to recuse themselves from the sacraments, and our moral leaders should explain that...

One gets this sense from 1 Corinthian 11:27-32 ...

Quote:
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.

If you don't receive the Holy Eucharist, then you will not have life within you. If you receive the Holy Eucharist unworthily, you will be held responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. In the meantime, recuse yourself until you come to your senses.

28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.

Here's an example of "unworthily" ... Unwillingness to honestly acknowledge one's grievous sins as measured against the words of Our Lord and interpreted by the Church.

29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Here's an example of "unworthily" ... Unable / unwilling to discern that it is truly the Real Presence. Why would you pretend to be a believer? The sacrament is for believers, not unbelievers.

30 That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

Some are spiritually ill and infirm, and some are well on their way to eternal death.

31 If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment;

32 but since we are judged by [the] Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

And we should explain that much that we see wrong in the Catholic Church today has much to do with disregarding these precautions.
This whole passage is about proper disposition... not your performance record.
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  #388  
Old Apr 16, '12, 3:01 pm
St Francis St Francis is online now
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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Originally Posted by wynnejj View Post
There was a thread on this in the Catholic News forum. Overall, I think the Cardinal is saying fish or cut bait.
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-Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange O.P



  #389  
Old Apr 16, '12, 4:15 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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Originally Posted by wynnejj View Post
Yes, but sacraments are not empty rituals. If one is treating a sacrament as if it is an empty ritual, then one needs to recuse themselves from the sacraments, and our moral leaders should explain that...

One gets this sense from 1 Corinthian 11:27-32 ...



This whole passage is about proper disposition... not your performance record.
I could make a non Catholic case for open communion but that's not the debate here. What though does someone recusing themselves from the Eucharist due to improper disposition have to do with urging them to leave the Church entirely? I thought Catholics encouraged Mass attendance even for those not in a Catholic state of grace to receive?
  #390  
Old Apr 16, '12, 5:12 pm
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wynnejj wynnejj is offline
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Default Re: Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

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Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
I could make a non Catholic case for open communion but that's not the debate here. What though does someone recusing themselves from the Eucharist due to improper disposition have to do with urging them to leave the Church entirely? I thought Catholics encouraged Mass attendance even for those not in a Catholic state of grace to receive?
Some people refuse to recuse themselves *ever* from the sacraments, even though they do not believe in the Real Presence or do not *ever* intend to correct their ways on certain matters that are grievous offenses against God. They insist on receiving the sacraments as a right. Is it your contention that such persons should not be encouraged to leave the Church, rather than receiving the sacraments sacrilegiously on a regular basis?

That seems to be the essence of what the Archbishop is saying. In this case, he cites refusal to attend Sunday Mass regularly, even though it is a grievous offense (mortal sin), yet they will show up at celebratory events and fully participate in the sacraments as if it is their right.
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