Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny - Page 29

jen fla · #**421** Apr 1, '12, 9:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martlet

But by this argument, would it not mean that if someone followed me, that stalker would be justified in killing me if, when cornered, I struck the first blow? Do I, as a woman, have to wait for the stalker to grab me before I can fight, or am I allowed to stand my ground and clobber him with the first heavy object that comes to hand? Is it not likely that, since Zimmerman was clearly following Martin, that it was in fact Martin who stood his ground?

Two forensic specialists have now stated that the screams were not Zimmerman. Of course, they cannot say it was Martin since they don't have any recordings of his voice with which to compare audio of the cries for help, but since only two people were there...

i should have worded that better and expanded. when i said "come at", i meant did something to make the other person think their life was in imminent danger.

in your scenario i think you'd be found innocent as you were cornered so that would reasonably make the threat imminent. if you notice someone following you down the sidewalk, (it would be reasonable to feel threatened), but you can't turn around, go up to them and smash them in the face with a heavy object. maybe you could have walked into a store or up to another person for help or ran away. even with no retreat laws, the threat still has to be imminent. is imminent a gray area? i guess, just like most things in law. could you have stopped on the side walk to see why the person was following you? yes (foolish most of us would say, but yes that would be your right)... but from that point on now that the suspect is in close proximity it would boil down to who made the first life threatening action.

so if george rushed at trayvon (or grabbed him and tried to detain him) and trayvon started pummeling him, trayvon would have had every right to stand his ground.

however if trayvon noticed george was following him (or even running after him) and then when george caught up he stopped (didn't lay a hand on him) and said what are you doing here? ... well if trayvon made the first blow, at that point, i think zimmerman ( as stupid as his actions may or may not have been) would be innocent.

i could be wrong, but i am pretty sure that is the idea of the law.

jen fla · #**422** Apr 1, '12, 9:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnewton

I have a question. Did Zimmerman call 911 to get an ambulance to tend to Martin? That would the first thing the police would do.

a witness said, he looked up at her and told her to call the police.

jen fla · #**423** Apr 1, '12, 9:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwizzleStick

Last December, a nicely-dressed, white male in his early 40s was in our subdivision ringing doorbells and looking in windows. When asked by a neighbor who answered her door what he was doing, he answered he was lost and looking for his relative's house on Name of our Street Court (we have no such court in our subdivision) and no such person lives in our small subivision. Anyway, he then went to a nearby house and kicked in their back door. There were teens home alone in that home, but luckily a parent returned home and caught the guy and a second man in his house. The two ran and were able to get away. The police were called, the home invasion incident was publicized, and descriptions of the men were circulated throughout the neighborhood and all were cautioned to be wary and watchful.

I was suspicious of any unknown white male that I saw in my subdivision, as well as any other unknown person that I saw. None of them were doing anything more than walking down the sidewalk. You just never know, so I was definitely aware and watchful whenever I saw someone, anyone, I didn't know.

a white guy with blonde hair was reported in our neighborhood for stealing so many of us were extra vigilant about white guys with blonde hair for about a year or so.

unrelated, but your post made me think i should pass on this tip. i found out most break ins occur from kicking in doors. i had always assumed it was from a window, so make sure you have great dead bolts and door frames. better yet, install doors that open towards the outside. i always thought that before anyone spends money on a tv, cable, playstation or whatever, we should secure the heck out of our homes.

seekerz · #**424** Apr 1, '12, 9:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bocephus

We cant can we.

You cant, I cant.

Zimmerman can, but are you going to believe him?

Typically it doesn't, which tells me that there is quite a possibility he wasn't simply walking in the rain.

I would be prepared to critically analyze any information Zimmerman could give on the suspicious behavior he alleges. Unfortunately, he has given none, despite a parade of proxies relating his version of events.

seekerz · #**425** Apr 1, '12, 9:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jen fla

legally what matters is who came at whom first.

We know for a fact that Zimmerman began following Martin - so he was the initiator of the chain of events.

We don't know who struck first and I don't think that matters; if someone is poised to attack me does the law require me to stand and take the first punch or the first shot?

seekerz · #**426** Apr 1, '12, 9:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnewton

I think it should be remembered that the police did arrest Zimmerman, but the DA would not take charges. It was the decision of the District Attorney that the charges would not be filed.

Regardless of who made the decision, it was made and a dead child will not have justice until it is unmade. It really doesn't matter who deprived him of it.

seekerz · #**427** Apr 1, '12, 9:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnewton

I do not know if that can be proven, or if this is a case of finding the specialists that says what one wants to here. In the end, if it is not Zimmerman screaming, that would change the weight given his testimony and damage his self-defense case.

I'm not sure how much training Zimmerman had, but for an armed man to allow an 'aggressor' to come within punching distance and then roll around on the ground hollering, simply would make me question whether people need proof of training before getting a gun license.

mary bobo · #**428** Apr 1, '12, 9:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerz

I would be prepared to critically analyze any information Zimmerman could give on the suspicious behavior he alleges. Unfortunately, he has given none, despite a parade of proxies relating his version of events.

I have not heard what Zimmerman told the police, have you?

seekerz · #**429** Apr 1, '12, 9:43 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary bobo

I have not heard what Zimmerman told the police, have you?

Repeatedly: from every 'gut friend'/'uncle'/friendly neighbor who could get near a mic, not to mention his dad and brother. (Of course, I'm assuming the police got the same version as his defenders).

jen fla · #**430** Apr 1, '12, 9:44 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerz

I'm not sure how much training Zimmerman had, but for an armed man to allow an 'aggressor' to come within punching distance and then roll around on the ground hollering, simply would make me question whether people need proof of training before getting a gun license.

they do. in florida you have to take a course before you can get your permit.

seekerz · #**431** Apr 1, '12, 9:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jen fla

they do. in florida you have to take a course before you can get your permit.

Then I suppose there's only so much that training can fix...

Bocephus · #**432** Apr 1, '12, 9:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerz

I would be prepared to critically analyze any information Zimmerman could give on the suspicious behavior he alleges. Unfortunately, he has given none, despite a parade of proxies relating his version of events.

All in due time.

We are not part of the investigation, I'm sure he's been asked the questions we all want answers to. In the mean time your free to speculate and convict him all you want. The more attention this case gets and the more hatred directed at Zimmerman will only increase the chances that it will all be thrown out and guilty or not he will not be prosecuted. If he's innocent, I feel sorry for the guy.

seekerz · #**433** Apr 1, '12, 9:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyjones

The suspicious behavior was described (add nauseum). Seeing is all that is required.
Only in a make -believe world of 911 calls do you have everyone seeing exactly what you see. We have courts of law and trials because two people can see the same act and report it differently in some cases. You can disbelieve Zimmerman's account that Martin was "acting like he's on drugs", but you can't reinvent the process which is what your hanging desperately onto.

I don't think that I'm the one 'desperately' would apply to...nevertheless, the fact remains that "acting like he's on drugs" is a conclusion made in your head, it does not describe any specific behavior or actions.

seekerz · #**434** Apr 1, '12, 9:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bocephus

All in due time.

We are not part of the investigation, I'm sure he's been asked the questions we all want answers to. In the mean time your free to speculate and convict him all you want. The more attention this case gets and the more hatred directed at Zimmerman will only increase the chances that it will all be thrown out and guilty or not he will not be prosecuted. If he's innocent, I feel sorry for the guy.

And if he's guilty...?

jen fla · #**435** Apr 1, '12, 9:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerz

We know for a fact that Zimmerman began following Martin - so he was the initiator of the chain of events.

We don't know who struck first and I don't think that matters; if someone is poised to attack me does the law require me to stand and take the first punch or the first shot?

in regards to manslaugter or homicide i'm not sure that matters. in order to use deadly force the threat has to be imminent.

please read post 421.