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  #481  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:27 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
This is why this law needs to be re-examined. It opens the way to a wild-west style gunfight, where each party stands his ground, perceives the threat, then fires. This is why self-defense in a situation like this must be a defense to prosecution, not an exemption from being charged. The idea may be sound for home defense, or defense of one's business, but in the public it permits misunderstanding to result in death.
I agree. Two people can honestly misread each other's motives and intentions and because the law absolves them of the duty to retreat, one might very well end up dead for no reason whatsoever.

At the very least, the survivor should have to show a credible threat and the police should diligently set about to verify or disprove it.

Personally, I'd rather give up my right to 'stand' than kill an someone for nothing.
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If Christians had lived up to the Church's teaching about property and poverty there never would have been any occasion for the spurious communism of the Marixists and all the rest - whose communism starts out by denying other men the right to own property.

There is only one true doctrine about property rights, and that is taught by Catholic tradition. Those rights exist and cannot be denied, but they imply an obligation which, if it were put into practice without hypocrisy, self-deception and subterfuge, would mean that most Christians would be living with something like the communism of the first Apostles: "For neither was there any one needy among them..."
Thomas Merton in New Seeds of Contemplation
  #482  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:28 am
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Dawnia Dawnia is offline
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by ringil View Post
Just posting information. I haven't even commented on the specifics of the situation. I have only voiced grave conserns with how the conversation is being handled.
Thanks for posting the information. My comment was directed at the article, not you. Sorry you thought so.
  #483  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:28 am
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by Bocephus View Post
Eh, if a piece of software conflicts with eyewitness testimony assuming he testifies that he's positive it was Zimmerman he heard, then it's gonna be a tough sell.
Not at all. Software also can be used to match fingerprints. If the science is sound, then it will be the testimony that is a hard sell. Don'f forget, we already have two conflicting testimonies as to who was on top. I am going to wait and see if either the state, federal or local agencies involved will stand by this forensic evidence or if it questionable.
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  #484  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:33 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
Not at all. Software also can be used to match fingerprints. If the science is sound, then it will be the testimony that is a hard sell. Don'f forget, we already have two conflicting testimonies as to who was on top. I am going to wait and see if either the state, federal or local agencies involved will stand by this forensic evidence or if it questionable.
I agree. Not all science is sufficiently reliable or peer-reviewed; like lie detector tests or air analysis of car trunks, for example.

We'll have to see how strong the science of voice detection is.
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Quote:
If Christians had lived up to the Church's teaching about property and poverty there never would have been any occasion for the spurious communism of the Marixists and all the rest - whose communism starts out by denying other men the right to own property.

There is only one true doctrine about property rights, and that is taught by Catholic tradition. Those rights exist and cannot be denied, but they imply an obligation which, if it were put into practice without hypocrisy, self-deception and subterfuge, would mean that most Christians would be living with something like the communism of the first Apostles: "For neither was there any one needy among them..."
Thomas Merton in New Seeds of Contemplation
  #485  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:33 am
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
I didn't find anything there to disagree with. If I interpret correctly, you are saying that the danger or threat has to be imminent to justify self-defense, no?
yes, but defending yourself and using deadly force to defend yourself are not always the same thing. you can't use deadly force in every situation where self defense might be called for.

deadly force is force likely to cause death or great bodily harm. - FS 776.06

in order for someone to use deadly force to protect themselves, they must reasonably believe that they were in an imminent life or death situation.

so for instance if two guys get into an argument and x pushes man y, y can't pull out his gun and shoot x. y could push him back, kick him in the nuts, etc, but most jurors would not find use of deadly force in that case justified. if y fought back with fists and the other didn't let up and really got the best of him and started pummeling his head against the pavement, at this point it could be reasonably argued that y had a right to shoot him.

there also might be a situation where a push, (say from body builder who is enraged) would be considered to put someone in a life or death situation (say the person they pushed was a tiny woman)... she might be found innocent of using deadly force to defend herself.

i guess the bottom line is what will a jury find to be reasonable.
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  #486  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:40 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by jen fla View Post
yes, but defending yourself and using deadly force to defend yourself are not always the same thing. you can't use deadly force in every situation where self defense might be called for.

deadly force is force likely to cause death or great bodily harm. - FS 776.06

in order for someone to use deadly force to protect themselves, they must reasonably believe that they were in an imminent life or death situation.
I'll grant you that. It just seems to me that without the duty to retreat and in the absence of eyewitnesses, any semi-intelligent person can make up a reasonable argument as to why they feared for their life.
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Quote:
If Christians had lived up to the Church's teaching about property and poverty there never would have been any occasion for the spurious communism of the Marixists and all the rest - whose communism starts out by denying other men the right to own property.

There is only one true doctrine about property rights, and that is taught by Catholic tradition. Those rights exist and cannot be denied, but they imply an obligation which, if it were put into practice without hypocrisy, self-deception and subterfuge, would mean that most Christians would be living with something like the communism of the first Apostles: "For neither was there any one needy among them..."
Thomas Merton in New Seeds of Contemplation
  #487  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:41 am
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

it is good we are expanding upon "who came at whom first". i was guilty of oversimplifying what can obviously be very complicated in the eyes of the law.
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Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. - Pope John Paul II
  #488  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:46 am
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by jen fla View Post
it is good we are expanding upon "who came at whom first". i was guilty of oversimplifying what can obviously be very complicated in the eyes of the law.
Complicated is exactly the word, which is why the overnight decision to accept the 'self-defense' justification (i.e. to deem no probable cause) makes no sense to me.
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Quote:
If Christians had lived up to the Church's teaching about property and poverty there never would have been any occasion for the spurious communism of the Marixists and all the rest - whose communism starts out by denying other men the right to own property.

There is only one true doctrine about property rights, and that is taught by Catholic tradition. Those rights exist and cannot be denied, but they imply an obligation which, if it were put into practice without hypocrisy, self-deception and subterfuge, would mean that most Christians would be living with something like the communism of the first Apostles: "For neither was there any one needy among them..."
Thomas Merton in New Seeds of Contemplation
  #489  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:46 am
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
I'll grant you that. It just seems to me that without the duty to retreat and in the absence of eyewitnesses, any semi-intelligent person can make up a reasonable argument as to why they feared for their life.
with or without the law, in the absence of witnesses or cameras, people can and do make up things all the time.
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Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. - Pope John Paul II
  #490  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:47 am
Bocephus Bocephus is offline
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
Not at all. Software also can be used to match fingerprints. If the science is sound, then it will be the testimony that is a hard sell. Don'f forget, we already have two conflicting testimonies as to who was on top. I am going to wait and see if either the state, federal or local agencies involved will stand by this forensic evidence or if it questionable.
Yes, but if I'm not mistaken one witness says they could see the colors of their shirts while the other could not, right? I could see the reliability of this software in some situations, but I'm not so sure it will be easy to hold up of one of the witnesses was a actually close enough to positively identify the two.
  #491  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:50 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by jen fla View Post
with or without the law, in the absence of witnesses or cameras, people can and do make up things all the time.
True. Which is why every case of a dead spouse or child is investigated so thoroughly - even for years, with or without probable cause to arrest anyone. Whether it was because of Stand Your Ground or not, this open and shut police 'investigation' leaves much to be desired.
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Quote:
If Christians had lived up to the Church's teaching about property and poverty there never would have been any occasion for the spurious communism of the Marixists and all the rest - whose communism starts out by denying other men the right to own property.

There is only one true doctrine about property rights, and that is taught by Catholic tradition. Those rights exist and cannot be denied, but they imply an obligation which, if it were put into practice without hypocrisy, self-deception and subterfuge, would mean that most Christians would be living with something like the communism of the first Apostles: "For neither was there any one needy among them..."
Thomas Merton in New Seeds of Contemplation
  #492  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:50 am
maryjk maryjk is offline
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
I agree. Not all science is sufficiently reliable or peer-reviewed; like lie detector tests or air analysis of car trunks, for example.

We'll have to see how strong the science of voice detection is.
And if it gets to a jury, what they think of it. DNA evidence it sound science. But many juries just don't seem to find it credible. And it is totally up to them what they believe and how they weigh the evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jen fla View Post
i guess the bottom line is what will a jury find to be reasonable.
Exactly. A jury may weigh any evidence presented to them, however they want. There are no rules that they have to go with the science.

In addition, a DA generally has to believe he has a winnable case. If he doesn't think he can win, he doesn't have to bring the case to court. Of course, with this case, the DA won't have that option.
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  #493  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:53 am
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Dawnia Dawnia is offline
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
I'll grant you that. It just seems to me that without the duty to retreat and in the absence of eyewitnesses, any semi-intelligent person can make up a reasonable argument as to why they feared for their life.
They still could do that under self-defense, regardless if there is a "stand your ground" law.
  #494  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:53 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by maryjk View Post
And if it gets to a jury, what they think of it. DNA evidence it sound science. But many juries just don't seem to find it credible. And it is totally up to them what they believe and how they weigh the evidence.

Exactly. A jury may weigh any evidence presented to them, however they want. There are no rules that they have to go with the science.

In addition, a DA generally has to believe he has a winnable case. If he doesn't think he can win, he doesn't have to bring the case to court. Of course, with this case, the DA won't have that option.
DNA evidence is virtually foolproof unless samples have been contaminated or deliberately switched. I guess there's no law against jurors who refuse to use their God-given higher faculties...
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Quote:
If Christians had lived up to the Church's teaching about property and poverty there never would have been any occasion for the spurious communism of the Marixists and all the rest - whose communism starts out by denying other men the right to own property.

There is only one true doctrine about property rights, and that is taught by Catholic tradition. Those rights exist and cannot be denied, but they imply an obligation which, if it were put into practice without hypocrisy, self-deception and subterfuge, would mean that most Christians would be living with something like the communism of the first Apostles: "For neither was there any one needy among them..."
Thomas Merton in New Seeds of Contemplation
  #495  
Old Apr 1, '12, 11:54 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Originally Posted by Dawnia View Post
They still could do that under self-defense, regardless if there is a "stand your ground" law.
True, but they'd have one less question to answer in court: "Why didn't you run/hide/stop pursuing/wait for the police?"
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If Christians had lived up to the Church's teaching about property and poverty there never would have been any occasion for the spurious communism of the Marixists and all the rest - whose communism starts out by denying other men the right to own property.

There is only one true doctrine about property rights, and that is taught by Catholic tradition. Those rights exist and cannot be denied, but they imply an obligation which, if it were put into practice without hypocrisy, self-deception and subterfuge, would mean that most Christians would be living with something like the communism of the first Apostles: "For neither was there any one needy among them..."
Thomas Merton in New Seeds of Contemplation
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