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  #16  
Old Apr 19, '12, 12:44 am
thewanderer thewanderer is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilots13 View Post
Ah, the "only do chant or your a heathen" discussion. I love this one. Two things, one question, and one find as a result of trying to get the answer myself.

Question: There is a list of instruments inappropriate to the mass and the reason given is that they are secular? Really? What makes something a secular instrument? Last I checked the Beatles used organs in their music and the Rolling Stones used choirs.

Find: From an article on getreligion.org: "Pope Benedict XVI is calling for an end to guitars and a return to traditional choirs in the Catholic Church… . The Pope’s supporters say that the music played during mass is a vital part of the communion between worshippers and God, and that medieval church music creates the correct ambience for perceiving God’s mystery, the newspaper said. But Cardinal Carlo Furno, grand master of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem, said it was “better to have guitars on the altar and rock and roll masses than empty churches.”"

And that last sentence is my view. If something heightens your worship experience, regardless of if it's chant, choir, Haas, or rock and/or roll, why is it a bad thing? If even the Pope is using Haugen music at a Mass, then Rome must not find this anywhere near as big an issue as some people here do.

Oh and on a side note, "the medieval church" being the correct church drives me crazy. Another topic, another day....
I'm just gonna throw this out there... but often it is precisely praise and worship / guitar music at mass that drives people away from the church and other more solemn (note I am not just saying gregorian chant, even just more traditional hymns etc) that tend to draw people in, especially young people. That has been my own experience both for myself and others I have known. I have also seen a couple threads on CAF that pretty much said the exact same thing. I think this fact goes hand in hand with the reason people discourage praise and worship and guitar etc from being used during mass, it turns the mass into something common, and does not set it apart as a beautiful liturgy where one puts ones best forward for God.
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  #17  
Old Apr 19, '12, 3:56 am
liturgyluver liturgyluver is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

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Originally Posted by Allegra View Post
This statement does not reflect reality. You would be hard pressed to find even among the most devout Catholics, anyone who can pick out any Gregorian chant melody other than Tantum Ergo. Only one in dozens of parishes have a music program that features Gregorian chant or polyphony, much less uses it exclusively. Both forms of music are outside of our culture's tonal and rhythmic systems. Therefore, they require a choir that is very well-trained and a choir director that is very specialized.
I would agree that this, in general terms, is the sad reality of Catholic music today. Congregations and priests seem to show no interest whatsoever in our rich heritage of liturgical music. Even when traditional hymns are scheduled, no-one bothers participating. Very, very sad.
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  #18  
Old Apr 19, '12, 6:03 am
MargeretMarina1 MargeretMarina1 is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

Saying that it dosen't reflect reality is exactly how most parishes end up with a guitar and a song leader for their Sunday mass. Every parish needs to make it their priority to assemble a choir group that sings along with the organ, and if possible also get a group together to do chant. These things can be accomplished over time and should be of upmost importance to the liturgy.

What makes the music secular is that we are exposed to it on a daily basis as non scared music, and also that it's theatrical. For example, some countries in Africa consider the drums to be a religious instrument and therefore are allowed to use them during the mass. The culture your in matters. If your sitting there thinking gosh this guitar song is rockin and I love the beat, than you've ruined your mass experience. The focus should be the words.

Mburn: I would caution against ever creating a worship experience where parishners are allowed to come forward and offer preaching. These opportunities don't exist because it's too easy for a parishner to accidentally or on purpose lead others astray. It's always good to make sure preaching is left to our priests and deacons, and that they are involved in any bible study and worship activities.
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  #19  
Old Apr 19, '12, 9:50 am
mburn16 mburn16 is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

I'm sorry, but when you restrict preaching, even outside the mass, to the clergy, you decapitate the ability of the faithful to spread God's word, or even to embolden the faith of existing believers.

This, I think, IS the one area where our Protestant friends have the upper hand: a far more direct engagement of believers as a whole to spread the Gospel.
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  #20  
Old Apr 20, '12, 6:10 am
pilots13 pilots13 is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thewanderer View Post
I'm just gonna throw this out there... but often it is precisely praise and worship / guitar music at mass that drives people away from the church and other more solemn (note I am not just saying gregorian chant, even just more traditional hymns etc) that tend to draw people in, especially young people. That has been my own experience both for myself and others I have known. I have also seen a couple threads on CAF that pretty much said the exact same thing. I think this fact goes hand in hand with the reason people discourage praise and worship and guitar etc from being used during mass, it turns the mass into something common, and does not set it apart as a beautiful liturgy where one puts ones best forward for God.
To each their own. For me, I personally prefer the guitar music over organ (not to say I dislike the organ or chant). My parish uses a guitar, piano and flute, and they do a fantastic job every week. Again, for me, I pay attention to the music more when it's something with a catchy tune. My experiences with organ or chant is you have a much harder time making out the words. Most organ Masses the organ is so loud you might as well not sing cause you can't hear yourself anyhow. And chant often is either in Latin (which I don't know) or in English but sounds almost mumbled when it's done. Guitar music can absolutely be over done too. But for me it makes my worship experience better. That's why we have different parishes with different styles. And it would be a mistake to do away with that.
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  #21  
Old Apr 20, '12, 8:38 am
MargeretMarina1 MargeretMarina1 is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

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Originally Posted by mburn16 View Post
I'm sorry, but when you restrict preaching, even outside the mass, to the clergy, you decapitate the ability of the faithful to spread God's word, or even to embolden the faith of existing believers.

This, I think, IS the one area where our Protestant friends have the upper hand: a far more direct engagement of believers as a whole to spread the Gospel.
I think you misunderstand what I meant. All laymen and women should invest time in apologetics in order to be able to explain the doctrines of their faith to others. It's important for evangelization. What I'm saying is that too many times, unchecked bible studies by lay persons have created belief in heresey or watered down moral teachings. Priests and deacons go to seminary for a reason. They are highly qualified to understand the true meaning of scripture having studied the ancient languages, contexts, and issues of translation.

Testimonies and defense of our faith by lay persons is vital, but it's important to understand that priest and deacons are tremendously more qualified than we are to preach and explain scripture. I agree that protestants do very well with evangelization, but I think they are at a great disadvantage with it comes to universal teaching. Universal teaching is lost with protestants because they often accept personal interpretations of scripture. It's the basis of how heresy happens.....people preaching improper representations of scripture.
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  #22  
Old Apr 20, '12, 9:01 am
MargeretMarina1 MargeretMarina1 is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

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Originally Posted by pilots13 View Post
To each their own. For me, I personally prefer the guitar music over organ (not to say I dislike the organ or chant). My parish uses a guitar, piano and flute, and they do a fantastic job every week. Again, for me, I pay attention to the music more when it's something with a catchy tune. My experiences with organ or chant is you have a much harder time making out the words. Most organ Masses the organ is so loud you might as well not sing cause you can't hear yourself anyhow. And chant often is either in Latin (which I don't know) or in English but sounds almost mumbled when it's done. Guitar music can absolutely be over done too. But for me it makes my worship experience better. That's why we have different parishes with different styles. And it would be a mistake to do away with that.
To be frank, "to each their own" is the mentality that's bringing the church to a crisis point with dissention. Liturgical music is not for your entertainment, and neither is the mass. The words to all of the music used, organ or not, is typically printed in your missal or bulletin, so glancing down at them will solve the problem of "not understanding the words". Don't know any Latin? Theres another serious problem with most parishes. Every Catholic should familiarize themselves with some basic liturgical latin, and this would be easier to do if parishes mixed in the Agnus Dei, and Sanctus on a regular basis.
If you're having trouble paying attention at any time in the mass it's most definitely not because of the music. If you think about how truly spectacular and amazing it is that every Sunday we get to be in the literal prescence of Christ, it'll help with paying attention. It's vital to understand that we are at the mass to worhip Him, and please Him....not ourselves.
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  #23  
Old Apr 20, '12, 9:35 am
Elisabeth51 Elisabeth51 is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MargeretMarina1 View Post
To be frank, "to each their own" is the mentality that's bringing the church to a crisis point with dissention. Liturgical music is not for your entertainment, and neither is the mass. The words to all of the music used, organ or not, is typically printed in your missal or bulletin, so glancing down at them will solve the problem of "not understanding the words". Don't know any Latin? Theres another serious problem with most parishes. Every Catholic should familiarize themselves with some basic liturgical latin, and this would be easier to do if parishes mixed in the Agnus Dei, and Sanctus on a regular basis.
If you're having trouble paying attention at any time in the mass it's most definitely not because of the music. If you think about how truly spectacular and amazing it is that every Sunday we get to be in the literal prescence of Christ, it'll help with paying attention. It's vital to understand that we are at the mass to worhip Him, and please Him....not ourselves.
I agree with what you're saying.

As for Latin---The regular use, with a translation provided, and you (this and any following "you" is nonspecific second person address) should get it, you should know what you're saying. You know the Gloria in English, right? At our Parish we do the Ordinary in English and Latin, we provide bilingual sheets for the people and sometimes the participation is good and sometimes it's not----I find when the priest sings the people sing. We have one priest that just stands there, those are the masses where the Cantor and I seem to be doing a duet.

As for not knowing the chant tunes---I realize I am likely a minority, but yes, I can pick out the tune, for example if you tell me we're doing the missa de Angelis or the orbis factor (VIII vs. XI) I will know what it will sound like. I also know all the verses to all the hymns for the protestant hymnal I grew up with. No, I'm not a music major nor do I have a photographic memory. It's repetitive use and the desire to learn. If you can learn and remember the Beatles songs, why can't you remember at the very least the parts of the Mass pertaining to the people?

There are lots of church documents on liturgy and music, including instruments:
1903-11-22 Tra Le Sollecitudini
1928-12-20 Divini Cultus
1947-11-20 Mediator Dei
1955-12-25 Musicae Sacrae
1958-09-03 De Musica Sacra Et Sacra Liturgia
1963-11-22 Nobile Subsidium Liturgiae
1963-12-04 Sacrosanctum Concilium
1967-03-05 Musicam Sacram
1974-04-14 Voluntati Obsequens (minimal chant required)
2001-03-28 Liturgiam Authenticam (liturgical translations)
2002-00-00 Missale Romanum
2004-04-23 Redemptionis Sacramentum (liturgical abuses)
2007-02-22 Sacramentum Caritatis

That's just a few and they're all available on the Vatican Website.

Evangelization....I do agree we as Catholics need to be more active, but I don't think letting people get up and preach is the right approach. I agree with my parish's main priest, an ex-Protestant himself, if people really knew and understood what was happening at Mass---the REAL PRESENCE of Christ in the Eucharist---we would have a packed church. That's why I'm Catholic. It took me awhile to realize the beauty of going to Adoration, now I hate missing. At our parish we're going to be doing classes on church history and on marriage and family to bring people in, to me that's better than trying to alter music or liturgy. Good preaching from the priest is always a plus though!

I do have a preference for traditional music, music that is praising God, and certainly there are hundreds of years of organ works for every possible liturgical occasion ranging from celebratory and joyful to somber and quiet. I don't think you're terrible if you want guitars and modern music, but I think there is so much rich traditional music in our Church, so much of what is modern seems so superficial to me in comparison.

As a cantor, I would agree that chant can be done BADLY. I cringe when our music director does it. I LOVE chant, but when he gets up to sing I want to run away, he does it so slowly I feel like standing up and saying--STOP!!!!! I try hard to pace myself so it's meditative without dragging, it's not easy!

Organs can be very super quiet and very loud---depending on registration used, I would hesitate to critize a "loud" organist, perhaps ask for an explanation? Are they always loud? Maybe they're not very experienced, maybe there's something bad with the set up, are the unnecessary microphones up front picking up and needlessly projecting the organ's sound? I'm an organ student, but know very well that I can, on our instrument of 1,104 pipes, be whisper quiet and I can also rattle the windows! Organ does not mean loud, really.
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  #24  
Old Apr 20, '12, 3:29 pm
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Allegra Allegra is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

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Originally Posted by liturgyluver View Post
I would agree that this, in general terms, is the sad reality of Catholic music today. Congregations and priests seem to show no interest whatsoever in our rich heritage of liturgical music. Even when traditional hymns are scheduled, no-one bothers participating. Very, very sad.
People tend to forget that there are centuries worth of Catholic musical tradition that does not fall into the catagory of chant. I think there is an interest in traditional music in the congregations, however, many parishes can't afford to hire trained choir directors and organists and in order to perform this kind of music, the musicians have to be a historian as well as a musician. I think all music used in Mass should be both reverant and relevant to the lituragy. I don't really think most, if any, praise and worship music is appropriate for Mass. There might be a few pieces with appropriate lyrics that might be reorchestrated for church use, but that's about it. That being said, I don't think it's practical to outlaw any music composed after 604 AD.
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  #25  
Old Apr 20, '12, 3:53 pm
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Allegra Allegra is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

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Originally Posted by MargeretMarina1 View Post
Saying that it dosen't reflect reality is exactly how most parishes end up with a guitar and a song leader for their Sunday mass. Every parish needs to make it their priority to assemble a choir group that sings along with the organ, and if possible also get a group together to do chant. These things can be accomplished over time and should be of upmost importance to the liturgy.

.
The situation is what it is. Acknowleging reality doesn't create it. It already exists. There is a vast array of music that is appropriate for Mass. There is an even more vast array of music that is inappropriate or not played appropriately for Mass. However, to state that only Gregorian chants and polyphony is allowed is clearly not realistic. Very few churches use those forms exclusively. Those that do greatly limit the ability of the congregation to participate. Most people can't sing plain chant in tune and Latin chants that are reset to English are cumbersome for even trained singers. The congregation obviously can not participate in a polyphonic hymn. (or likely, understand the text) The result is a Mass that is only appreciated by the choir, devoted musicians (assuming the choir isn't completely trashing the music in the first place), and THAT guy who is in love with anything old, whether he understands it or not. What is really important is that the music is relevant to the liturgy, performed reverently, and the text is understood (and preferably participated in) by the congregation. Anything else is a matter of taste.
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  #26  
Old Apr 20, '12, 7:46 pm
VeiledCatholic VeiledCatholic is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

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Originally Posted by MargeretMarina1 View Post
Praise and worship music is not permitted in the mass. It it not classified as "sacred music", and only sacred music is allowed. You also have to consider how this music is being played. Recordings of any kind are forbidden during the mass. Music must be played, and the organ is the instument of choice. This excludes most religious praise and worship music that useses secular instruments such as guitars, drums, keboards, ect. The music chosen needs to reflect the liturgy, and be worthy of the mass in which Jesus Christ is present. This is a very serious issue for the mass, and should not be taken lightly.
I am returning back to the Catholic Church after being away for 15 years. My husband and I haven't gotten settled in a parish yet. There is a Catholic church near our house, so we paid it a visit recently. They had drums, guitars, tambourines and were singing 'Lord I lift You Name on High' among other praise and worship songs and people were dancing in their pews, shaking their bootys and clapping. I didn't know whether to laugh or to be stunned. My first thought was 'when did the Catholic church go mainstream'? Thought I was back in the Pentecostal church there for a moment...
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Old Apr 20, '12, 8:03 pm
The Curt Jester The Curt Jester is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

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Originally Posted by VeiledCatholic View Post
I am returning back to the Catholic Church after being away for 15 years. My husband and I haven't gotten settled in a parish yet. There is a Catholic church near our house, so we paid it a visit recently. They had drums, guitars, tambourines and were singing 'Lord I lift You Name on High' among other praise and worship songs and people were dancing in their pews, shaking their bootys and clapping. I didn't know whether to laugh or to be stunned. My first thought was 'when did the Catholic church go mainstream'? Thought I was back in the Pentecostal church there for a moment...
And thus, praise and worship music reveals itself as entertainment!
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  #28  
Old Apr 20, '12, 8:34 pm
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Gertabelle Gertabelle is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

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Originally Posted by Allegra View Post
I think there is an interest in traditional music in the congregations, however, many parishes can't afford to hire trained choir directors and organists and in order to perform this kind of music, the musicians have to be a historian as well as a musician. That being said, I don't think it's practical to outlaw any music composed after 604 AD.
A bit extreme in your assessment there

I've been around music ministry since middle school and have been all over the map with styles and responsibilities. Chant and polyphony take no more rehearsal than any other piece of music sung in unison (chant) or parts (polyphony).

Being an "historian" is absolutely not required for group directors or organists. And training is as varied as the people landing in those positions. I have been playing the piano for over 30 years, but just got volunteered to play the organ. Because I know the Church has given primacy of place to the organ in the mass, I agreed to do my best and jump in.

Trying to establish some sort of class warfare where only the wealthy can afford, perform, and appreciate chant and polyphony is utter nonsense. My parish is in the inner city, in a school district where students only have a 50% chance of graduating from high school, and where generational poverty is the norm. The parishoners love their rap, and hip-hop, and heavy metal. But the mass with the chant and polyphony is the most highly-attended mass of the four offered on Sundays!

The choice of music at mass is about preference, commitment, and sometimes obedience. As a parish, our pastors have encouraged increase in chant, Latin mass parts, and the use of the organ instead of the piano. We do this because these are the directions of Holy Mother Church in the documents that guide us in our musical choices. We still sing hymns from the hymnal, and there's still a variety of music at the masses. But the closer we align ourselves to the Church's directions, the more we've seen mass attendance increase.

Two more of my cents.

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  #29  
Old Apr 20, '12, 8:51 pm
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JGMendes4049 JGMendes4049 is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

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Originally Posted by thewanderer View Post
I'm just gonna throw this out there... but often it is precisely praise and worship / guitar music at mass that drives people away from the church and other more solemn (note I am not just saying gregorian chant, even just more traditional hymns etc) that tend to draw people in, especially young people. That has been my own experience both for myself and others I have known. I have also seen a couple threads on CAF that pretty much said the exact same thing. I think this fact goes hand in hand with the reason people discourage praise and worship and guitar etc from being used during mass, it turns the mass into something common, and does not set it apart as a beautiful liturgy where one puts ones best forward for God.
This is true. CAF user YoungTradCath can attest to this.
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  #30  
Old Apr 20, '12, 8:54 pm
Wanttobechaste Wanttobechaste is offline
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Default Re: Question on Music and Mass.

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Originally Posted by MargeretMarina1 View Post
To be frank, "to each their own" is the mentality that's bringing the church to a crisis point with dissention. Liturgical music is not for your entertainment, and neither is the mass. The words to all of the music used, organ or not, is typically printed in your missal or bulletin, so glancing down at them will solve the problem of "not understanding the words". Don't know any Latin? Theres another serious problem with most parishes. Every Catholic should familiarize themselves with some basic liturgical latin, and this would be easier to do if parishes mixed in the Agnus Dei, and Sanctus on a regular basis.
If you're having trouble paying attention at any time in the mass it's most definitely not because of the music. If you think about how truly spectacular and amazing it is that every Sunday we get to be in the literal prescence of Christ, it'll help with paying attention. It's vital to understand that we are at the mass to worhip Him, and please Him....not ourselves.
The mass I go to is a guitar mass with praise and worship music and latin in the agnus dei.
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