A specific proposal for a rule change re charity to atheists and non-believers

[Hokomai]

Following recent discussions in another thread, I have a specific proposal for amendment to the rules. My suggestions are in red below:

CONDUCT RULES

1. Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and crude or sexually-explicit language. See the Concierge Desk sub-forum for more information.
2. Inappropriate or offensive user names, profile entries, or pictures are not permitted.
3. Messages should be short. Do not post lengthy replies (including replies that consist largely of quotes from an earlier message).
4. Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
5. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics and all others participating on the board.
6. Catholics, and all others must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice, and about non-belief.
7. Beliefs or non-beliefs, opinions and practices may be rejected or criticised. Rejection and criticism must be respectfully expressed, and directed at the belief or non-belief, opinion or practice, and not at the person who expresses or advocates them.

[Maryann C]

Really again?
Webster's definition of belief : 1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in a person or THING ( my emphasis and example- i.e I believe this car will get me from A to B). 2.Mental acceptance of or conviction in the truth or actuality of something. 3. Something believed or accepted as true, esp a particular tenet or body of tenets accepted by a group of persons ( e.g the belief in the existence of aliens from outer space)

ERGO there is no such thing as a non-believer. One can be a non- Christian or a non- Catholic so the rules already cover you .....no change in wording needed,

[the phoenix]

* turns your attention to "THE DOCTOR IS IN" sign and thoughtfully leans forward on her elbows with a philosophical expression *



So what happens if,
I don't believe
that someone else doesn't believe?
My non-belief that someone else doesn't believe
should be respected with charity too, right,
even if that means I believe
that someone else believes?
Would that make me a believer, a non-believer,
or confused?
And if I were confused,
wouldn't I deserve my own category for that
so that the rules say people must act charitably towards me anyways?



And what if I don't know whether to believe or not,
placing me potentially in a no-man's land that may or may not exist
between belief and non-belief?

What if I question whether things like belief and non-belief even exist?


* in best Lucy van Pelt style, takes a deep breath and then pronounces: *

CATEGORIES ... WE NEED MORE CATEGORIES !!!

That will be 5 cents, please.


(and yes, this is tongue-in-cheek ...
and we'd better have a category for that too.)

[Hokomai]

Originally Posted by the phoenix

* turns your attention to "THE DOCTOR IS IN" sign and thoughtfully leans forward on her elbows with a philosophical expression *



So what happens if,
I don't believe
that someone else doesn't believe?
My non-belief that someone else doesn't believe
should be respected with charity too, right,
even if that means I believe
that someone else believes?
Would that make me a believer, a non-believer,
or confused?
And if I were confused,
wouldn't I deserve my own category for that
so that the rules say people must act charitably towards me anyways?



And what if I don't know whether to believe or not,
placing me potentially in a no-man's land that may or may not exist
between belief and non-belief?

What if I question whether things like belief and non-belief even exist?


* in best Lucy van Pelt style, takes a deep breath and then pronounces: *

CATEGORIES ... WE NEED MORE CATEGORIES !!!

That will be 5 cents, please.


(and yes, this is tongue-in-cheek ...
and we'd better have a category for that too.)

I enjoyed this. But my suggestion is serious!

[damian clarke]

I would oppose sepcifically singling out any group for special mention for the reasons I have previously stated. We should show charity to all. However debate will be robust.

[Hokomai]

Originally Posted by damian clarke

I would oppose sepcifically singling out any group for special mention for the reasons I have previously stated. We should show charity to all. However debate will be robust.

No group is specifically singled out in my proposal.

[Lochias]

Originally Posted by Hokomai

Following recent discussions in another thread, I have a specific proposal for amendment to the rules. My suggestions are in red below:

CONDUCT RULES

1. Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and crude or sexually-explicit language. See the Concierge Desk sub-forum for more information.
2. Inappropriate or offensive user names, profile entries, or pictures are not permitted.
3. Messages should be short. Do not post lengthy replies (including replies that consist largely of quotes from an earlier message).
4. Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
5. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics and all others participating on the board.
6. Catholics, and all others must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice, and about non-belief.
7. Beliefs or non-beliefs, opinions and practices may be rejected or criticised. Rejection and criticism must be respectfully expressed, and directed at the belief or non-belief, opinion or practice, and not at the person who expresses or advocates them.

If you practice a way of life that is not in accordance with Catholic belief, you are in effect practicing a non-Catholic practice. It seems to me that you are already covered under the existing rules.

[Fiasco]

Originally Posted by Hokomai

I enjoyed this. But my suggestion is serious!

It`d be quite easy for you to get what you want: start treating US with respect, and we`ll return the favour - in fact, i think we already do pretty well when responding to atheists/anti-theists. So many of your posts radiate antagonism and condescension/contempt that this present thread and your previous one do NOT ring true. There`s a whiff of the pot calling the kettle black. A bit of a nerve......

On a slightly different note: if my memory hasn`t betrayed me, beside "Religion", you used to have words which indicated that you`re a former Catholic. Apology in advance if i`m wrong.
Anyone else know?

[Hokomai]

Originally Posted by Fiasco

It`d be quite easy for you to get what you want: start treating US with respect, and we`ll return the favour - in fact, i think we already do pretty well when responding to atheists/anti-theists. So many of your posts radiate antagonism and condescension/contempt that this present thread and your previous one do NOT ring true. There`s a whiff of the pot calling the kettle black. A bit of a nerve......

On a slightly different note: if my memory hasn`t betrayed me, beside "Religion", you used to have words which indicated that you`re a former Catholic. Apology in advance if i`m wrong.
Anyone else know?

I was indeed a Catholic. I would be interested to know which of my posts you have seen in the way you describe, so I can understand better the effect my words have. I have no interest in creating the impressions you mention, and am worried to hear that it has been your experience.

[Michael Francis]

The current rules are quite clear and there is no need for any such change. They read...

CONDUCT RULES

1. Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and crude or sexually-explicit language. See the Concierge Desk sub-forum for more information.
2. Inappropriate or offensive user names, profile entries, or pictures are not permitted.
3. Messages should be short. Do not post lengthy replies (including replies that consist largely of quotes from an earlier message).
4. Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
5. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
6. Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.

And since non-believers fall under the class of above mentioned non-Catholics, this rules change is unnecessary.


If anyone feels that a post violates any rule, the Enforcement section lays down the mandated way to deal with that post. It reads...


ENFORCEMENT

1. Reports of infractions of these rules should be submitted to the moderators by the bad-post reporting system. Just click the image in the problematic post.
2. Material that violates the rules may be edited or deleted without prior notice.
3. Judgments by the Moderators can be discussed with the Moderators via private messaging but not on the board itself. Decisions of the Moderators may be appealed to the Administrator.
4. Users who persistently violate the rules will be banned.

The owners of Catholic Answers Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any on-line discussion, or part thereof, for any reason.

No particular groups need special mention aside from what is already there.

[Maryann C]

Originally Posted by Lochias

If you practice a way of life that is not in accordance with Catholic belief, you are in effect practicing a non-Catholic practice. It seems to me that you are already covered under the existing rules.

Amen , my point exactly. @ Phoenix - brilliant, loved it. To our Mod .....many thanks for clarifying. Unsubscribing from this thread because to quote the OP it has become "tiresome".

[damian clarke]

Originally Posted by Hokomai

No group is specifically singled out in my proposal.

The title of your thread calls specifically for charity towards a certain group. You happen to be a member of that so called group. Hence you are asking for special protection. Try and stop being so disingenious.

[damian clarke]

Actually the rule about not single mindedly pursuing a narrow agenda is quite an apt one for this thread. Just now we will not be allowed to say that atheism is wrong on our own Catholic forum for fear of being uncharitabe to some unbeliever who just happnes to frequent this liitle bit of cyberspace without any preformed agenda.

[Hokomai]

Originally Posted by damian clarke

Actually the rule about not single mindedly pursuing a narrow agenda is quite an apt one for this thread. Just now we will not be allowed to say that atheism is wrong on our own Catholic forum for fear of being uncharitabe to some unbeliever who just happnes to frequent this liitle bit of cyberspace without any preformed agenda.

My proposal specifically protects such a statement.

[Hokomai]

Michael, can you tell me please where in the present rules it is 'quite clear' that

• non-Catholics must be respectful of people other than Catholics
• Catholics must be respectful of non-Catholic people as distinct from 'belief and practice
• all must be respectful of those who express no belief

I specifically address these in my OP.


In addition to the lack of clarity in the rules, a review of threads about atheism will show that, even if the rules are clear, the outcomes for believers and non believers (and for that matter Jews, Muslims and JWs and Catholics) are different. Does CAF ever conduct formal reviews of such things, based on evidence?



Thank you

Originally Posted by Michael Francis

The current rules are quite clear and there is no need for any such change. They read...

CONDUCT RULES

1. Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and crude or sexually-explicit language. See the Concierge Desk sub-forum for more information.
2. Inappropriate or offensive user names, profile entries, or pictures are not permitted.
3. Messages should be short. Do not post lengthy replies (including replies that consist largely of quotes from an earlier message).
4. Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
5. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
6. Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.

And since non-believers fall under the class of above mentioned non-Catholics, this rules change is unnecessary.


If anyone feels that a post violates any rule, the Enforcement section lays down the mandated way to deal with that post. It reads...


ENFORCEMENT

1. Reports of infractions of these rules should be submitted to the moderators by the bad-post reporting system. Just click the image in the problematic post.
2. Material that violates the rules may be edited or deleted without prior notice.
3. Judgments by the Moderators can be discussed with the Moderators via private messaging but not on the board itself. Decisions of the Moderators may be appealed to the Administrator.
4. Users who persistently violate the rules will be banned.

The owners of Catholic Answers Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any on-line discussion, or part thereof, for any reason.

No particular groups need special mention aside from what is already there.