Church teaching on Islam

[Wandile]

Originally Posted by rinnie

Who ever said Islam was a merciful and kind religion? What does Islam having a false doctrine have to do with them praying to the One True God?

EVERYTHING!

It is one thing to have one or two conflicting doctrines... It is another to have multiple doctrines contradictory to those of the creed of the Church.

There is a fine line between a misunderstanding of who God is, and a correct understanding of a different deity.

The God of Islam is FFFFAAAAAAAAARRR too different to even be considered the same deity anymore. Allah of the Qur'an is a whole new Deity entirely.

[JharekCarnelian]

The God of Islam is FFFFAAAAAAAAARRR too different to even be considered the same deity anymore. Allah of the Qur'an is a whole new Deity entirely.
__________________

Again that is your own opinion, AND NOT what the Church teaches.

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by Wandile

The Catechism is ambiguous on this as noted in my previous post. The people who wrote #841 were very smart and chose their words wisely so as to make the statement of faith not as controversial as it could be if they gave a simple statement of their position on the muslims.



NO IT DOES NOT. I'll refer you to the quotation I posted -

All it says is that Mohammedans” (Musulmanos) are “professing” to hold the faith of Abraham. Whether or not they actually hold it is arguable, but the Vatican Council is only noting that they claim for their faith that it is that of Abraham, without discussing whether or not Islam actually is an authentically Abrahamic faith.

If the Vatican Council is saying that they only profess the faith of Abraham, then how can they turn around and say TOGETHER with us worship the One true God.

And also what part of One True God, and ONE false teaching are you people missing here?

The Pope has a duty to teach the truth. The truth is the Muslims and the Jews and the Christians all pray to the One true God, the God of Abraham.

What part of Muslims having the One true God, but following the teachings of a false prophet are you guys missing here.

Can you not see that this is a simple truth. They pray to Allah who is GOD The creator of heaven and earth.

What does them having a false teaching have to do with them praying to the ONE TRUE GOD the creator of heaven and earth.

[Wandile]

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

Again that is your own opinion, AND NOT what the Church teaches.

Never did I say it was the Church's opinion. I know that it is mine and I am fallible but even the Bishops of the Church are but mere men. Now I am subject to the teachings of Mother Church but yet how I read the Catechism is quite different to the way you read it clearly.

If I am found in conflict with the Church on this topic then so be it. I am of this stance and as for now believe in it. Although I take on the example of my predecessors like Jerome who although questioned the Deuterocanonicals, still never voiced his opinion over that of the Church. But rather stuck to his beliefs but chose taught those of the Church in humility and thus included the Deuterocanon in the Vulgate.

In the same way I will stay contempt to my beliefs until I receive a better case other wise. But in the event of evangelizing, I will only teach what the Church teaches. and NOT what I think is true.

This issue on muslims however, is VERY debatable and even apologists interpret the passage differently.

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by Wandile

EVERYTHING!

It is one thing to have one or two conflicting doctrines... It is another to have multiple doctrines contradictory to those of the creed of the Church.

There is a fine line between a misunderstanding of who God is, and a correct understanding of a different deity.

The God of Islam is FFFFAAAAAAAAARRR too different to even be considered the same deity anymore. Allah of the Qur'an is a whole new Deity entirely.

Why? What does conflicting doctrines have to do with the God of Abraham, the God that Muslims pray to and we pray to make the One true God false.

Is the God of Abraham the One true God? Yes or No? If the Muslims have a false god, so do we. Because the CC teaches TOGETHER WITH US worship the ONE TRUE GOD.

Or are you saying that the Church is a liar?

[Wandile]

Originally Posted by rinnie

If the Vatican Council is saying that they only profess the faith of Abraham, then how can they turn around and say TOGETHER with us worship the One true God.

And also what part of One True God, and ONE false teaching are you people missing here?

The Pope has a duty to teach the truth. The truth is the Muslims and the Jews and the Christians all pray to the One true God, the God of Abraham.

What part of Muslims having the One true God, but following the teachings of a false prophet are you guys missing here.

Can you not see that this is a simple truth. They pray to Allah who is GOD The creator of heaven and earth.

What does them having a false teaching have to do with them praying to the ONE TRUE GOD the creator of heaven and earth.

Ok I have come to the conclusion that my attempts we're ambitious and that I read the CCC incorrectly. The Church is teaching that we worship the same God.

However I can't accept such a teaching. Not now at least. Maybe never but I will not teach my opinion to a potential Christian but only the teaching of the Church.

In spirit, I still believe that Allah (of the Qur'an) is not YHWH.

Please contact me directly at wmgwenya@gmail.com or inbox me directly her on CAF

God bless

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by Wandile

Never did I say it was the Church's opinion. I know that it is mine and I am fallible but even the Bishops of the Church are but mere men. Now I am subject to the teachings of Mother Church but yet how I read the Catechism is quite different to the way you read it clearly.

If I am found in conflict with the Church on this topic then so be it. I am of this stance and as for now believe in it. Although I take on the example of my predecessors like Jerome who although questioned the Deuterocanonicals, still never voiced his opinion over that of the Church. But rather stuck to his beliefs but chose taught those of the Church in humility and thus included the Deuterocanon in the Vulgate.

In the same way I will stay contempt to my beliefs until I receive a better case other wise. But in the event of evangelizing, I will only teach what the Church teaches. and NOT what I think is true.

This issue on muslims however, is VERY debatable and even apologists interpret the passage differently.

How can you possibly interpret this passage differently.

The Vatican Council 11 Quote The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship GOD who is One living and Subsistent, merciful and Almighty the creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to humanity. Unquote.

Now how can you possibly not understand that. How can you say it is not clear?

[Wandile]

Originally Posted by rinnie

Why? What does conflicting doctrines have to do with the God of Abraham, the God that Muslims pray to and we pray to make the One true God false.

Is the God of Abraham the One true God? Yes or No? If the Muslims have a false god, so do we. Because the CC teaches TOGETHER WITH US worship the ONE TRUE GOD.

Or are you saying that the Church is a liar?

How did I know you would go down this path

The God of Abraham is the One true God. I told you I disagree with this teaching and am not proud of it but I am with case.

I believe the Church is not lying but is simply incorrect
on this issue. However I am not going to judge the Church and say with absolute assurity that it is wrong for that is not my place. I just hope that God shows the truth to me regarding this issue.

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by Wandile

Ok I have come to the conclusion that my attempts we're ambitious and that I read the CCC incorrectly. The Church is teaching that we worship the same God.

However I can't accept such a teaching. Not now at least. Maybe never but I will not teach my opinion to a potential Christian but only the teaching of the Church.

In spirit, I still believe that Allah (of the Qur'an) is not YHWH.

Please contact me directly at wmgwenya@gmail.com or inbox me directly her on CAF

God bless

I truly understand that you are having a hard time accepting this. And thats okay.

But remember the Pope has to teach the truth in all faiths. The truth in the Muslim faith is they do not worship a false god. We must tell the truth.

But remember these people have no idea what truth is, apart from who the true God is. They never had the honor to read the gospel. If they get caught reading a bible they could be killed.

But they are beginning to learn the truth now. Give them time, and the true children of God will turn towards Jesus. But they must learn the truth before that can accept it.

Muslims are just now learning the truth, and are comming to the RCC in record numbers. Give them time and pray for them.

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by Wandile

How did I know you would go down this path

The God of Abraham is the One true God. I told you I disagree with this teaching and am not proud of it but I am with case.

I believe the Church is not lying but is simply incorrect
on this issue. However I am not going to judge the Church and say with absolute assurity that it is wrong for that is not my place. I just hope that God shows the truth to me regarding this issue.

He will. Just keep praying. But remember the promise we have. Jesus promised the Church the Advocate the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truth.

The Holy Spirit is where the truth comes from. If the Holy Spriit speaks its the truth.

[JharekCarnelian]

I will say that there are teachings of the Church I have struggled with myself upon (slowly) returning to the Church several years back so I can understand Wandile's frustration here. It shows a certain ammount of courage to admit your own understanding may be incomplete and it also shows humility to submit to the Church's teaching, something I have struggled with at times.

It may help to note that there are many historical precenents for Popes and others pointing out that Muslims worship the one God, but they always (as in the extracts provided) make clear to add the caveat that Muslims do so imperfectly and lack access to the revealed truth available to us.

[Wandile]

Originally Posted by rinnie

I truly understand that you are having a hard time accepting this. And thats okay.

But remember the Pope has to teach the truth in all faiths. The truth in the Muslim faith is they do not worship a false god. We must tell the truth.

But remember these people have no idea what truth is, apart from who the true God is. They never had the honor to read the gospel. If they get caught reading a bible they could be killed.

But they are beginning to learn the truth now. Give them time, and the true children of God will turn towards Jesus. But they must learn the truth before that can accept it.

Muslims are just now learning the truth, and are comming to the RCC in record numbers. Give them time and pray for them.

My problem with this is that £any ex-muslims I have encountered (even some of CAF) say that the God of Islam is not the God of the bible. Who knows better than those who practised Islam?

Secondly we need to remember the extent of the Pope's infalliblity. He is a man and is prone to err even in theological disputes. Now there is a VERY good chance that he is correct on this issue as he is speaking for the whole Church but I'll have to consult God for assurity. Until then... I stand in direct opposition to this teaching

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by Wandile

My problem with this is that £any ex-muslims I have encountered (even some of CAF) say that the God of Islam is not the God of the bible. Who knows better than those who practised Islam?

Secondly we need to remember the extent of the Pope's infalliblity. He is a man and is prone to err even in theological disputes. Now there is a VERY good chance that he is correct on this issue as he is speaking for the whole Church but I'll have to consult God for assurity. Until then... I stand in direct opposition to this teaching

Yes the Pope can be incorrect when he gives his opinion on things. That is when he is stating what he thinks.

This is not an opinion of the Pope. This is a true teaching of the Church.

He cannot err when he teaches in the name of God. We have that promise from God.

Like here is an example. He was asked if a unbaptised child could go to heaven without being baptised?

He said he does not know. All he knows is the Church teaches you must be baptised to enter heaven. But he also said that we can also rely on the mercy of God.

Now in his OPINION does he THINK a baby that is not baptised can go to heaven? He says yes he chooses to believe in the mercy of God.

Can he say YES, no he cannot. Do you see what I am saying? He can only teach what is revealed to him. That is not. Only that you have to be baptised to enter heaven. or baptism of desire. thats another whole thing. Don't want to derail. but you get my point.

But the Musims having the same God is a teaching.

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

I will say that there are teachings of the Church I have struggled with myself upon (slowly) returning to the Church several years back so I can understand Wandile's frustration here. It shows a certain ammount of courage to admit your own understanding may be incomplete and it also shows humility to submit to the Church's teaching, something I have struggled with at times.

It may help to note that there are many historical precenents for Popes and others pointing out that Muslims worship the one God, but they always (as in the extracts provided) make clear to add the caveat that Muslims do so imperfectly and lack access to the revealed truth available to us.

We all have teaching's we do not understand. Or sometimes actually can say we truly agree with at times. But we must obey. We are not told we must always understand. But if we pray in God's time he will reveal things to us.

I misunderstood Purgatory one time. I was told we do not have to believe in it anymore. But what I found out is this. We do not have to believe that it is always necessary to enter heaven through purgatory.

That some people can become Saints in this world. See it was my misunderstanding. We all get them. And we all have so much more to learn our faith.

My Dad was 82 when he died, he served Mass 5 days a week with Father, was a Knight, and was still learning before he died. And read the bible through hundreds of times. He said we will never have enough time in this world to learn it all.

[JharekCarnelian]

Even eternity I suspect will be just barely time enough to accomplish this goal.