Church teaching on Islam - Page 29

Armyvet007 · #**421** May 8, '12, 6:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey

Thank you for an honest answer. The Roman Catholic concept of "invincible ignorance" seems to be the only way to reconcile this dilemma. However, you can travel to any mosque....talk to any Imam......ask any muslim.....if they worship the same God as the Christians. They will ask: "Who is your God?" And you will say: God the Father...God the Son...and God the Holy Spirit.....the Trinity, one in essence and undivided. And they will tell you: "We do not worship that God."

That seems like conscious and willful rejection to me.

1. Going to an Imam is a great idea if you only want to learn what Islam teaches or its history, but a bad one if you are trying to learn what is True about it. You would need to go to the Authority on the Truth for that [the Church]. Imams have no authority in determining what is True.

2. "You can lead a horse to water [explain/teach], but you can't make it drink [learn/understand]." I had a very good calculas teacher in college. He knew calculas forwards and backwards and was an outstanding teacher. Despite all this, I never learned or understood calculas. This doesn't mean I willfully rejected or denied calculas, it just means I remain ignorant about it.

Edit- Add "This doesn't...." on IOT complete my thought.

jam070406 · #**422** May 8, '12, 6:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armyvet007

1. Going to an Imam is a great idea if you only want to learn what Islam teaches or its history, but a bad one if you are trying to learn what is True about it. You would need to go to the Authority on the Truth for that [the Church]. Imams have no authority in determining what is True.

2. "You can lead a horse to water [explain/teach], but you can't make it drink [learn/understand]." I had a very good calculas teacher in college. He knew calculas forwards and backwards and was an outstanding teacher. Despite all this, I never learned or understood calculas.

God doesn't infuse you with grace to be able to know calculas. He does if wish to know the Truth of Him. You can accept or reject.

Kristin234 · #**423** May 8, '12, 6:24 am

I do not believe they worship the same God. Just because they claim they worship the same God does not mean that they do. They completely reject Jesus Christ as being the Son of God. They reject him being God. They reject his death and resurrection. Jesus Christ IS God. How do they worship the same God as us when they completely reject that very same God?

The Bible tells us that no one can come to the Father but through the Son. How do they worship God if they do not even know the Son? How do they worship something they do not know?

Jesus Himself says since you don't know who I am you don't know who my Father is. Sure they know the watered down good prophet Jesus, but Muslims do NOT know who the TRUE and ETERNAL Jesus Christ is.

He also says that if God were your Father you would also love Jesus. Then he goes on to say that those who don't understand him can't hear him and that is because their father is NOT God but the devil.

Armyvet007 · #**424** May 8, '12, 6:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jam070406

God doesn't infuse you with grace to be able to know calculas. He does if wish to know the Truth of Him. You can accept or reject.

As I stated yesterday, I'm done trying to hold a discussion with you. If I wished to engage in an argument, I would return to the FoxNews boards. You win, good job and good day.

jam070406 · #**425** May 8, '12, 6:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristin234

I do not believe they worship the same God. Just because they claim they worship the same God does not mean that they do. They completely reject Jesus Christ as being the Son of God. They reject him being God. They reject his death and resurrection. Jesus Christ IS God. How do they worship the same God as us when they completely reject that very same God?

The Bible tells us that no one can come to the Father but through the Son. How do they worship God if they do not even know the Son? How do they worship something they do not know?

Jesus Himself says since you don't know who I am you don't know who my Father is. Sure they know the watered down good prophet Jesus, but Muslims do NOT know who the TRUE and ETERNAL Jesus Christ is.

He also says that if God were your Father you would also love Jesus. Then he goes on to say that those who don't understand him can't hear him and that is because their father is NOT God but the devil.

I agree. It seems so clear cut.
This is Ecumenism run amuck, like a run away freight train that can't be controlled and is enshrined in doctrine.
It has done nothing to bring Muslims to Jesus and has affirmed their ideas that they do not need to convert.
It has caused confusion, indifferentism, relativism & conflict between Catholics.

jam070406 · #**426** May 8, '12, 6:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armyvet007

As I stated yesterday, I'm done trying to hold a discussion with you. If I wished to engage in an argument, I would return to the FoxNews boards. You win, good job and good day.

Sorry but stating, because the CCC says, while dismissing the entire realm of the Catholic Faith, reason and Tradition is not a sufficient enough answer for me. This is a serious issue for me that doesn't make sense and has shaken my view in the Church.
I bring up tough counter points and questions that result in insults and people getting mad because they can't answer.

**Mickey** · #**427** May 8, '12, 6:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

I can find you plenty of saints and Popes from the middle ages who whist condemning the errors of Islam point out we worship the same one God. So the idea these are all new comments is fallacious in the extreme.

I would like to read these comments from these post schism saints.

**Mickey** · #**428** May 8, '12, 6:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armyvet007

You would need to go to the Authority on the Truth for that [the Church].

Exactly!

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armyvet007

Imams have no authority in determining what is True.

Agreed. But if you want to know what Islam believes....you can hear it from their own lips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armyvet007

2. "You can lead a horse to water [explain/teach], but you can't make it drink [learn/understand]." I had a very good calculas teacher in college. He knew calculas forwards and backwards and was an outstanding teacher. Despite all this, I never learned or understood calculas. This doesn't mean I willfully rejected or denied calculas, it just means I remain ignorant about it.

But you believe calculus to be valid...right? Even though you do not understand it fully.

Musilms do not accept the validity of the Holy Trinity.

**Mickey** · #**429** May 8, '12, 6:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristin234

I do not believe they worship the same God. Just because they claim they worship the same God does not mean that they do. They completely reject Jesus Christ as being the Son of God. They reject him being God. They reject his death and resurrection. Jesus Christ IS God. How do they worship the same God as us when they completely reject that very same God?

Yes.

Armyvet007 · #**430** May 8, '12, 6:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristin234

I do not believe they worship the same God. Just because they claim they worship the same God does not mean that they do. They completely reject Jesus Christ as being the Son of God. They reject him being God. They reject his death and resurrection. Jesus Christ IS God. How do they worship the same God as us when they completely reject that very same God?

The Bible tells us that no one can come to the Father but through the Son. How do they worship God if they do not even know the Son? How do they worship something they do not know?

Jesus Himself says since you don't know who I am you don't know who my Father is. Sure they know the watered down good prophet Jesus, but Muslims do NOT know who the TRUE and ETERNAL Jesus Christ is.

He also says that if God were your Father you would also love Jesus. Then he goes on to say that those who don't understand him can't hear him and that is because their father is NOT God but the devil.

What passages are you taking this from? If it's from John 8, then I think this isn't Christ using know as in being ignorant of, but know as in rejecting/denying the Truth [willful ignorance]. The idea that a person is condemned for something they are ignorant of conflicts with the idea that God forgives those who knowingly reject/deny the Truth and repent. [How is ignorance [of both the sin and need to repent] worse then sinning but then repenting?]

Kristin234 · #**431** May 8, '12, 7:11 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armyvet007

What passages are you taking this from? If it's from John 8, then I think this isn't Christ using know as in being ignorant of, but know as in rejecting/denying the Truth [willful ignorance]. The idea that a person is condemned for something they are ignorant of conflicts with the idea that God forgives those who knowingly reject/deny the Truth and repent. [How is ignorance [of both the sin and need to repent] worse then sinning but then repenting?]

Muslims know what Christians believe. They know that we believe that Jesus Christ is 100% human and 100% God. They know that we believe that He is the Son of God. They know that we believe that He was crucified and on the third day resurrected. Their book tells them that we believe all of this and tells them to reject those beliefs. That is not ignorance. If you are going to say that that is ignorance then we might as well say every human being is ignorant and that they are not really rejecting the Truth.

When it comes down to it they are indeed rejecting Jesus Christ. They do not know Him. The Bible is very clear that those who know Him have a father and that is God, and that those who do not know Him also have a father but it is the devil. There is no in between. Either you know Him and you know the Father because of Jesus or you don't know or worship the True God at all because you do not know Jesus Christ.

Armyvet007 · #**432** May 8, '12, 7:14 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey

Agreed. But if you want to know what Islam believes....you can hear it from their own lips.

Yes, but is this belief based on the ignorance of the Truth or the rejection/willful ignorance of it?

But you believe calculus to be valid...right? Even though you do not understand it fully.

Musilms do not accept the validity of the Holy Trinity.

True [the validity part]. On hindsight that was a horrible analogy. I guess the real question is if Muslim refusal to believe the validity of the Holy Trinity is due to ignorance of it [calculas isn't valid mathematics] or because they reject it [calculas is valid mathematics, I just don't understand how to do it or like it, therefore I don't need to understand it/believe it is valid].

**Mickey** · #**433** May 8, '12, 7:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armyvet007

Yes, but is this belief based on the ignorance of the Truth or the rejection/willful ignorance of it?

I would say both. I am sure there are those who have not been exposed much to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and they preside in their ignorance. And there are those who understand fully....and willfully/conciously reject it.

rinnie · #**434** May 8, '12, 7:27 am

There comes a time that you have to know when to say when and let go and Let God.

I believe we have reached that time.

I believe that we as Roman Catholic's have done everything in our power to show what the Church teaches.

But it is not a question anymore of what our Pope teaches us in our Church, it has become I will not accept what your Pope teaches.

Even Mickey will agree that we have taught the truth of what our Pope teaches. Mickey will say he does not agree with what our Pope teaches, and that is being honest. But he will admit we told the truth, and if not he will show where we misquoted the Pope.

But even Mickey will not say your Pope is not teaching that. He will agree what we have said is exactly what we are taught in Vatican Council 11.

I was told by my Priest that I must learn what the Vatican Council teaches in order to learn my faith. If the Vatican Council does not teach what the RCC teaches what is the purpose of it. It is what our Church teaches.

But we have showed what our Church teaches and what we believe to be true. We submit to our Pope and accept his teaching's and believe in our heart he is telling us the truth.

If we did not we could not be Roman Catholic.

It is come to a time I believe we have given every single written constitiutions decrees and declarations there are. If I can find anymore I will be back and show them.

But I will not argue anymore on that what I think the Pope teaches, or etc. I know what is being taught to me, and I have the 15 documents of the VCll in my hand.

But this has become not what our Church teaches, it has become I believe your Pope is wrong, or overstepped his authority.

The Pope can teach us with the Bishops or by himself. He is the leader of the sheep. I am his sheep and I will follow his teaching's.

But I will not sit here and be told my Pope is mistaken or my Pope does not know everything etc. It is not fair to me or others. And it is not what we are taught from God to argue. We sometimes have to shake the sand and walk away.

If I find anymore teachings I will post them. But I will not let myself be drawn into arguing about whether my Pope is right or wrong. I draw the line.

God bless you and keep you and may his light shine upon you.

Armyvet007 · #**435** May 8, '12, 7:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristin234

Muslims know what Christians believe. They know that we believe that Jesus Christ is 100% human and 100% God. They know that we believe that He is the Son of God. They know that we believe that He was crucified and on the third day resurrected. Their book tells them that we believe all of this and tells them to reject those beliefs. That is not ignorance. If you are going to say that that is ignorance then we might as well say every human being is ignorant and that they are not really rejecting the Truth.

Do they? The Quran is full of errors in regards to what Christians believe [one prime example being the Trinity]. Are Muslims guilty of rejecting the Truth of the Trinity because they [like us] reject the Trinity as explained in the Quran [God, Jesus (just a man), and Mary)]?

When it comes down to it they are indeed rejecting Jesus Christ. They do not know Him. The Bible is very clear that those who know Him have a father and that is God, and that those who do not know Him also have a father but it is the devil. There is no in between. Either you know Him and you know the Father because of Jesus or you don't know or worship the True God at all because you do not know Jesus Christ.

You can not reject what you do not know.