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  #151  
Old Apr 14, '12, 4:29 am
James Least James Least is offline
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Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

We continue to belabor the fine points of false religion. Joseph Smith Jr. is either a false prophet or a true prophet. If true, we should all be Mormon. They have the Gospel Restored. If false, everything since Joseph Smith Jr. is necessarily false. It matters not who may have reformed his prophesies. Falsehoods, regardless of restoration and reformation are still reformed lies built on lies. "A little leaven leavens the whole lump".

We have difficulty with authenticity and verity. It is possible to be authentic and false.

Peace,

James Least
  #152  
Old Apr 14, '12, 4:48 am
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Jerusha Jerusha is offline
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Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Yes, James, the Book of Mormon, the cornerstone of their faith, is a fraud. This has been proven many times. It is not even good literature, like the Bible. So they go on, arguing about other things. The LDS church is a money-making machine for the higherups, and they don't want to let go of that.

Quote:
Also, Latter-day Saints are called to repent before partaking of the Sacrament, and are also called to repentance whenever necessary. For serious sins, the Latter-day Saint confesses to their bishop, who can guide them through repentance and restitution.
They rarely go in voluntarily, they are called in for a "worthiness interview." The bishop is not professionally trained in such matters. Often, the confidentiality of such an interview is not respected. Despite the fact that they confess their sins, they can have their TR cancelled, as a sign that God does not forgive them, and neither does the bishop. Perhaps we need to make comparisons between the worthiness interview and the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
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  #153  
Old Apr 14, '12, 6:09 am
Janderich Janderich is offline
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Religion: LDS (Mormon)
Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Least View Post
We continue to belabor the fine points of false religion. Joseph Smith Jr. is either a false prophet or a true prophet. If true, we should all be Mormon. They have the Gospel Restored. If false, everything since Joseph Smith Jr. is necessarily false. It matters not who may have reformed his prophesies. Falsehoods, regardless of restoration and reformation are still reformed lies built on lies. "A little leaven leavens the whole lump".

We have difficulty with authenticity and verity. It is possible to be authentic and false.

Peace,

James Least
James,
I can appreciate this stance. Indeed it is true. Either Joseph Smith was called of God or he was not. Either he had the First Vision or he did not. Either he is a prophet of God or one of the greatest liars in the world. He leaves very little room to believe anything else. For example he says:
Quote:
I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.
Now, if he is a charlatan and a liar than I would expect people of religion to either not care or kindly point such things out. However, with some it is quite the opposite. Joseph once marveled at this very thing:
Quote:
During the space of time which intervened between the time I had the vision and the year eighteen hundred and twenty-three—having been forbidden to join any of the religious sects of the day, and being of very tender years, and persecuted by those who ought to have been my friends and to have treated me kindly, and if they supposed me to be deluded to have endeavored in a proper and affectionate manner to have reclaimed me...
To what end then is this anger. What is the point?
  #154  
Old Apr 14, '12, 6:18 am
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Jerusha Jerusha is offline
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Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Quote:
Now, if he is a charlatan and a liar than I would expect people of religion to either not care or kindly point such things out.
Your generalization is inaccurate. Many politely point out the evidence. There is anger on both sides. For many years I did not care, until I realized that Mormons assumed that I was bigoted against them, and they then acted out of their paranoia. Where does THAT come from?
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Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. Luke 6:28


http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/
  #155  
Old Apr 14, '12, 6:23 am
Stephen168 Stephen168 is offline
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Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Quote:
Originally Posted by LivingWaters7 View Post
Latter-day Saint Christians believe that Jesus Christ is The Creator of the Universe. We reject creation ex-nihilo, however we believe that Christ created everything (I already answered your repeated question of what did Christ create with "everything" before) in existence from pre-existing matter.
No, you said God created everything. Now you are saying Christ created everything. It seems that you have at least two creators, so neither can be THE creator, but only A creator.


It seems that “pre-existent” is another word (like philosophy and apostasy) thrown around by Mormons which they haven’t really thought about. When something “pre-exists” it does not yet exist. So there is no such thing as pre-existent matter. What you seem to be saying is that matter has always existed and there is NO creator. This does give me some insight on why it seems that most mormons first fall into atheism upon discovering the fraud of Joseph Smith.
  #156  
Old Apr 14, '12, 7:31 am
truthsave truthsave is offline
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Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen168 View Post
No, you said God created everything. Now you are saying Christ created everything. It seems that you have at least two creators, so neither can be THE creator, but only A creator.


It seems that “pre-existent” is another word (like philosophy and apostasy) thrown around by Mormons which they haven’t really thought about. When something “pre-exists” it does not yet exist. So there is no such thing as pre-existent matter. What you seem to be saying is that matter has always existed and there is NO creator. This does give me some insight on why it seems that most mormons first fall into atheism upon discovering the fraud of Joseph Smith.
I love Hinduiste, Buddists, Taoists and others and their theology.
The problem I personally have with mormons and I guess many of us here and not is not what they believe and who they are and how they behave, and it is incredible they don't understand this. The problem is like somebody would state that he is married also with my wife, then I say no, is not like this, but he insists saying her name and that he also has some children with her. And I tell him no, she is not the same woman, but he insists...then we asked each one what she does and how she behave and what she did and we realize we are not talking about the same woman but he keep on insisting on the case and pointing out that is me the problem because he had a revelation his one is the real her.
I could leave he alone and don't make a problem and respec his altered view of things if he would keep it personal. If not sooner or later there could be some legal problem out of this confusion and later on nobody would be able to recognize who of us was really married with that lady.
With other religions and theologies the starting point his different but at the end we realize our love for our wife is the same and so similar that the receiver of our love even she has a different name, aspect and so on, when we talk about her we realize we just talk about our love for a woman for who we have engageded to spend our live with.
It is like we talk about our loveand not of different women.
It is extremely different.
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Last edited by truthsave; Apr 14, '12 at 7:45 am.
  #157  
Old Apr 14, '12, 7:31 am
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twopekinguys twopekinguys is offline
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Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Quote:
Originally Posted by LivingWaters7 View Post
Because those that did not have a chance to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ in this life will have that chance in the next before the Final Judgement. After death we are judged, however that is not the Final Judgement.
But yet, your church ignores those that have obviously rejected the mormon gospel.

Again, Holocaust Victims, Fr. Damien, Blessed JPII, and the list goes on and on.
(which you ignored from a previous post)

Again, it is mormon speak. The whole world uses one definition, but mormons decide that their new interpetation of a word(s) is the right one.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.
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Last edited by twopekinguys; Apr 14, '12 at 7:48 am.
  #158  
Old Apr 14, '12, 7:35 am
TexanKnight TexanKnight is offline
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Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janderich View Post
James,
I can appreciate this stance. Indeed it is true. Either Joseph Smith was called of God or he was not. Either he had the First Vision or he did not. Either he is a prophet of God or one of the greatest liars in the world. He leaves very little room to believe anything else. For example he says:

Now, if he is a charlatan and a liar than I would expect people of religion to either not care or kindly point such things out. However, with some it is quite the opposite. Joseph once marveled at this very thing: To what end then is this anger. What is the point?
There is no anger.

If grass continues to grow, I do not get angry that I must continually mow it.

Y'all keep posting. I do not get angry that I must continually refute your posts with truth.

Be Blessed
  #159  
Old Apr 14, '12, 8:17 am
RebeccaJ RebeccaJ is offline
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Join Date: July 20, 2007
Posts: 9,545
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janderich View Post
James,
I can appreciate this stance. Indeed it is true. Either Joseph Smith was called of God or he was not. Either he had the First Vision or he did not. Either he is a prophet of God or one of the greatest liars in the world. He leaves very little room to believe anything else. For example he says:

Now, if he is a charlatan and a liar than I would expect people of religion to either not care or kindly point such things out. However, with some it is quite the opposite. Joseph once marveled at this very thing: To what end then is this anger. What is the point?
Many who have left Mormonism feel anger over being duped into believing lies, forking over tens of thousands of dollars that they'll never get back, putting in thousands of hours of service that they'll never get back.

Or, for holding onto those false teachings as truth, people are angry at themselves.

It only gets more difficult as you exit Mormonism. People who leave Mormonsim get falsely accused of everything by Mormons, from adultery to being offended, and everything else in between. Some Mrmons go so far as to try and steal children away from the parent who is leaving. A believing Mormon spouse seeks divorces, only because they think they need a Mormon spouse to get into heaven. The person leaving doesn't need false promises to continue loving their spouse. Etc. etc. Some people lose everything.

It goes on and on, when a person's world is shook at its core, and everything they once believed falls like a house of cards, it is difficult if not impossible to not be angry at the root cause. Which is, Joseph Smith and his lies that are still believed and are being perpetuated by Mormons.

It takes time to get through such a large change in your life. Most people eventually find peace and are able to let the anger go. Doesn't mean that you lie silent while the lies continue on. You do what you can, oppose the lies, even at the risk of being ostersized even more from the Mormon community.
  #160  
Old Apr 14, '12, 8:23 am
RebeccaJ RebeccaJ is offline
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Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Least View Post
We continue to belabor the fine points of false religion. Joseph Smith Jr. is either a false prophet or a true prophet. If true, we should all be Mormon. They have the Gospel Restored. If false, everything since Joseph Smith Jr. is necessarily false. It matters not who may have reformed his prophesies. Falsehoods, regardless of restoration and reformation are still reformed lies built on lies. "A little leaven leavens the whole lump".

We have difficulty with authenticity and verity. It is possible to be authentic and false.

Peace,

James Least
I think that most former Mrmons here would agree, that as long as Mormons are targeting Catholics and other Christans for conversion, there will be former Mormons to speak up in order that people aren't being blindly led into the house of cards.
  #161  
Old Apr 14, '12, 8:35 am
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Jerusha Jerusha is offline
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Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Quote:
It takes time to get through such a large change in your life. Most people eventually find peace and are able to let the anger go.
And stuffed feeling often fester and grow. Only by expressing them in a rational and productive manner can they help US grow as individuals and a society.
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Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. Luke 6:28


http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/
  #162  
Old Apr 14, '12, 8:38 am
RebeccaJ RebeccaJ is offline
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Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Quote:
Originally Posted by LivingWaters7 View Post
Because those that did not have a chance to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ in this life will have that chance in the next before the Final Judgement. After death we are judged, however that is not the Final Judgement.



Refutes your idea that ones judgement can change after death. We are judged at the moment of our death, there is no second chance.

Beyond that, even as a Mormon I thought it was a funny thing to believe that spirits just go on acting like they never died.
  #163  
Old Apr 14, '12, 8:44 am
RebeccaJ RebeccaJ is offline
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Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerusha View Post
And stuffed feeling often fester and grow. Only by expressing them in a rational and productive manner can they help US grow as individuals and a society.
Yes, and I think saying or writing what is felt helps to flesh out the irratiomal. Hanging onto anger for years on end, is irrational. Just let it go.
  #164  
Old Apr 14, '12, 8:52 am
TexanKnight TexanKnight is offline
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Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

Quote:
Originally Posted by RebeccaJ View Post
Many who have left Mormonism feel anger over being duped into believing lies, forking over tens of thousands of dollars that they'll never get back, putting in thousands of hours of service that they'll never get back.

Or, for holding onto those false teachings as truth, people are angry at themselves.

It only gets more difficult as you exit Mormonism. People who leave Mormonsim get falsely accused of everything by Mormons, from adultery to being offended, and everything else in between. Some Mrmons go so far as to try and steal children away from the parent who is leaving. A believing Mormon spouse seeks divorces, only because they think they need a Mormon spouse to get into heaven. The person leaving doesn't need false promises to continue loving their spouse. Etc. etc. Some people lose everything.

It goes on and on, when a person's world is shook at its core, and everything they once believed falls like a house of cards, it is difficult if not impossible to not be angry at the root cause. Which is, Joseph Smith and his lies that are still believed and are being perpetuated by Mormons.

It takes time to get through such a large change in your life. Most people eventually find peace and are able to let the anger go. Doesn't mean that you lie silent while the lies continue on. You do what you can, oppose the lies, even at the risk of being ostersized even more from the Mormon community.
I hold no anger. In fact, I believe that, if not for the LDS Church, I might never have found the truth that is the Catholic Church.

See, many folks are easy for Satan...put drugs, alcohol, etc. in front of them and they fall. So, what does Satan use? Churches. A place to mislead good people.

I always wondered why the LDS hated the Catholic Church so much....then it hit...because the Catholic Church is true.

So, I have no anger. I have gratitude. And a desire to speak out against false churches.
  #165  
Old Apr 14, '12, 8:53 am
RebeccaJ RebeccaJ is offline
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Default Re: Mormonism and Protestantism

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Originally Posted by TheExorcist View Post
Although there is NO better place to go then the good old RfM board when you are REALLY mad at the church on a certain day or week.....its not very constructive but in some ways it feels cathartic. Then I can come back on here for my spirituality fix.

I spent a lot of time at RfM, ten years or so ago, when i was an atheist. Eventually, I came to view the atmosphere there as Mormon, still, in that the people there still think like Mormons. And the anger there that never ends as toxic. Its like a contest of who can relate the most anger inspiring experience. I don't even read there any more.

It really is where I began to see my own atheism as having a weak foundation, because I could see that weak foundation in others. Mainly, that empirical view of the world. I was a right and proper nihilist. People claiming "truth" based on what is known and conveyed by the Ehrmans and Hitchens of the world, seemed as delusional to me as Mormonism.
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