Mormonism and Protestantism - Page 13

truthsave · #**181** Apr 14, '12, 10:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LivingWaters7

Latter-day Saints believe, as Hebrews 9:27 teaches, that after death comes judgement (the question then becomes, what is that judgement what does it entail, what does it result in). We believe that when we die, we are judged as to our place in the Spirit World, either Paradise or Prison. Those in Prison that did not have a chance to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ in this life will have that chance in the next, and can accept (or reject) the "saving ordinances" performed in this world on their behalf. At the Final Judgement, which will occur after the resurrection, we will be judged as to our place in Heaven or Outer Darkness.

I forgot to say that also considering this statement the importance of the mission of the apostols to spread the Gospel (not Joseph Smith "inspired" one) would also been reduced in its importnce as their troubles and sacrifice the have faced to spread it. Because they have acted as it was very important to convert in this life no like there was going to be a second chance.

Jerusha · #**182** Apr 14, '12, 10:44 am

Quote:

At the Final Judgement, which will occur after the resurrection, we will be judged as to our place in Heaven or Outer Darkness.

Sounds like double-talk to me.

TexanKnight · #**183** Apr 14, '12, 10:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janderich

Rebecca,
I do see what a difficult situation a person can be placed in if they leave the Mormon church. And no doubt there are some members who approach a former member completely wrong which can damage long standing and significant relationships. Know that I respect you, and on this forum if I express a different belief it is not an attack on you. And I will extend that to any person with whom I disagree (even TexanKnight

).

By the way, I also honor any person who strives to follow the Sermon on the Mount and other teachings of Christ be the ex-Mormon, Catholic, or any other Christian religion.

Janderich, I actually hold NOTHING against Mormons. I do not go to LDS sites (though I used to). In fact, when my kids were minors, my best friend (who is LDS) were the guardians of my children should my wife and I die together. Prolly tmi, but I wanted to show you that I truly hold nothing against Mormons. There are parts of me that REALLY wish the LDS was true because I enjoyed being LDS. I just can;t get past the beliefs, once I discovered the true doctrines.

I do not believe you are knowingly trying to mislead people. I believe you are like I was. You are wearing blinders and You feel very good about it.

I feel the need to correct your doctrinal comments. I feel that calling. If the LDS Church had always taught what they teach now, there would be less issues to discuss, but the True God does not have a morphing doctrine displayed by the LDS Church.

You have admitted that BY taught false doctrine. Do you really think God would allow a true prophet to teach false doctrine?

Think about it. Pray about it.

Be Blessed

LivingWaters7 · #**184** Apr 14, '12, 10:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerusha

Sounds like double-talk to me.

How can it be double talk when we're talking about two distinct judgement events, with distinct results.

RebeccaJ · #**185** Apr 14, '12, 10:52 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LivingWaters7

Latter-day Saints believe that after death we are judged. This of course is not the Final Judgement (which is what you originally referenced).

Also, the verse makes no statement as to at what point after death we are judged. It only states that judgement occurs after death. Latter-day Saints agree that after death comes judgement. Proxy ordinances do not change the fact that after death comes judgement. Therefore, nothing is being read into the text.

So, proxy baptisms change the Final Judgement.

We are judged at the moment of our death. That judgement is final, it is not the beginning a a second life that determines your position in a third life.

Jerusha · #**186** Apr 14, '12, 10:52 am

Quote:

At the Final Judgement, which will occur after the resurrection, we will be judged as to our place in Heaven or Outer Darkness.

That is double-talk. What is the difference between spirit-prison and outer darkness?

RebeccaJ · #**187** Apr 14, '12, 10:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerusha

That is double-talk. What is the difference between spirit-prison and outer darkness?

It's a second life, after this one, before heaven or outer darkness.

Jerusha · #**188** Apr 14, '12, 11:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebeccaJ

It's a second life, after this one, before heaven or outer darkness.

AAH-- does spirit-prison have something to do with us suffering for our sins here, being crucified like Jesus was, on another planet? "Jesus was once a sinful man"?

LivingWaters7 · #**189** Apr 14, '12, 11:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerusha

That is double-talk. What is the difference between spirit-prison and outer darkness?

And again, it is not double talk. If it is, demonstrate it.

Latter-day Saints believe that when we die, we go to the Spirit World (member of The Church of Jesus Christ sometimes associate this with Hades). The Spirit World is where we remain before the Resurrection and Final Judgement. The Spirit World is divided into Paradise and Prison. In Prison awaits those who did not have the chance to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ in this life, as well as those that did and rejected it. Those that did not have the chance to accept the Gospel in this life will have that chance in the next. Outer Darkness is a state of eternal punishment.

RebeccaJ · #**190** Apr 14, '12, 11:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerusha

AAH-- does spirit-prison have something to do with us suffering for our sins here, being crucified like Jesus was, on another planet? "Jesus was once a sinful man"?

None whatsoever.

Jerusha · #**191** Apr 14, '12, 11:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebeccaJ

None whatsoever.

Could you take it to PM or e-mail and explain further? This is very confusing. Thanks.

RebeccaJ · #**192** Apr 14, '12, 11:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerusha

Could you take it to PM or e-mail and explain further? This is very confusing. Thanks.

I think it is a good discussion for here, as even Catholics sometimes view tha Mormon idea of spirit prison as related to the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

So, by comparison, the Cathikic doctrine is, we are judged at the moment of our death. Our final destiny for all eternity occurs at this time. This is called the particular judgement. Those judged as going to heaven but having temporal effects of sin on their souls, are in purgatory, which is God's cleansing fire. Those who are judged as pure at the time of their death are immediately experiencing the beatific vision.

The Final Judgement is when all will be laid bare and nothing will be hidden. All will give an account of their deeds and all will understand their judgement as just. Along the dogma of limbo, this is when their judgement will be consciously understood as right and just.

So to purgatory, which is often compared to Mormn spirit prison. In purgatory souls are made clean, this process involving suffering, as you said, tied to the Cross of Jesus Christ. It is place or state of healing. And as you know, sometimes healing requires suffering through a period of cleansing.

Mormons view suffering much differently. It is either and indication that you have fallen out of favor with God, and so you are being punished by God, or being allowed to suffer until you straighten up. Or, suffering is being allowed by God so that you can learn something that is necessary for your growth (remembering all growth for Mormons has the goal of godhood).

Spirit prison is a holding place, more like limbo than purgatory. They believe you have to be a Mormon to get into heaven, not that a person is judged in a just manner, for how they live, regardless of what religion you adhere to. So God's justice is for Mormons, based on knowledge. Spirit prison is where this knowledge is gained. It doesn't have anything to do with suffering. As far as I know Mormons believe suffering ends after death. With the exception of those who will feel remorse for not being in the celestial kingdom and becoming gods. They will suffer, in the way that a person suffers when they see someone who has achieved something better than themselves.

Jerusha · #**193** Apr 14, '12, 11:31 am

Thanks. Your explanation, with the parallels, is much clearer.

Janderich · #**194** Apr 14, '12, 12:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texan Knight

Janderich, I actually hold NOTHING against Mormons. I do not go to LDS sites (though I used to). In fact, when my kids were minors, my best friend (who is LDS) were the guardians of my children should my wife and I die together. Prolly tmi, but I wanted to show you that I truly hold nothing against Mormons. There are parts of me that REALLY wish the LDS was true because I enjoyed being LDS. I just can;t get past the beliefs, once I discovered the true doctrines.

I do not believe you are knowingly trying to mislead people. I believe you are like I was. You are wearing blinders and You feel very good about it.

I feel the need to correct your doctrinal comments. I feel that calling. If the LDS Church had always taught what they teach now, there would be less issues to discuss, but the True God does not have a morphing doctrine displayed by the LDS Church.

You have admitted that BY taught false doctrine. Do you really think God would allow a true prophet to teach false doctrine?

Think about it. Pray about it.

Be Blessed

TexanKnight,
Since you have brought up this issue of prophets a number of times I will touch on the matter once and then be done with it on this thread.

First, teaching can and does change, that is precisely why we need prophets. The early church had questions regarding gentiles recieving baptisim. Peter had a vision and changed the direction of the church to allow gentiles to be baptized. I assume you are thankful that he did. On some occasions that is what the prophet does today.

Second, sometimes non-members try to hold the prophet to unreasonable standards. Yes he is the prophet of God on the earth but he is still a man. Yes he speaks for the Lord but he does not always do so. There have been a limited few occasions where the prophet appears to have spoken incorrectly. It doesn't worry me. Prophets were never to be infallible. There are a number of examples in the Bible of prophets making mistakes. So what? The spirit speaks truth on the matter. That is the way to judge. It always has been, it always will be.

My only worry is the way statements such as the above are twisted and dragged about by non members in hopes of somehow attempting to prove that prophets are false. I hope you wont do the same.

Even this last conference there was a good teaching on this matter.

Quote:

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.” President Clark, quoted earlier, observed:

“To this point runs a simple story my father told me as a boy, I do not know on what authority, but it illustrates the point. His story was that during the excitement incident to the coming of [Johnston’s] Army, Brother Brigham preached to the people in a morning meeting a sermon vibrant with defiance to the approaching army, and declaring an intention to oppose and drive them back. In the afternoon meeting he arose and said that Brigham Young had been talking in the morning, but the Lord was going to talk now. He then delivered an address, the tempo of which was the opposite from the morning talk. …

“… The Church will know by the testimony of the Holy Ghost in the body of the members, whether the brethren in voicing their views are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’; and in due time that knowledge will be made manifest.” (The Doctrine of Christ, D. Todd Christopherson, GC April 2012)

truthsave · #**195** Apr 14, '12, 1:18 pm

Janderich, with your statement the only thing evident we can get is that it is impossible to detect a phaulse prophet. Whatever he does is inpired and a changement. The base of phaulseness of prophets, as said directly by Jesus and repeated many times by St. Paul, is exatly the contrary. Who changes the doctrine of the Gospel (not Joseph Smith "revelation, but the report of the living Jesus words and act) is a phaulse prophet.

How? If he is normally reasonable and not completely crazy it is not possible to sayit is a phaulse prophet.

As far as concern Peter and the gentiles: you are talking about the act of the first apostols. The apostols after the Pentcost they were inspired and were living their "norma"l men status with personal prejudice to the vision of Jesus Christ. for this only reason they received the Holy Ghost in the Pentecost not to change vision on something there was not a vision of what should do the church before the church. Before them there was not a Church.
Your vision is misleadind and not correct. It is a mormon vision not a christian one.