Mormonism and Protestantism - Page 6

LivingWaters7 · #76 Apr 10, '12, 9:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerusha

It then becomes necessary to go to the sources, like the Journal of Discourses. The on-line version is word-searchable. Of course, he will then go to "we don't teach that now, " but their teachings are constantly changing. And it is difficult for their members to practice a religion which is so fluid, other than by tithing and attending the temple. Mere works, and not charitable works at that.

And again, please see my posts above and demonstrate how I am trying to take advantage of language difference.

RebeccaJ · #77 Apr 10, '12, 10:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LivingWaters7

And again, I believe that the articles I linked to clarify the Latter-day Saint perspective from the Latter-day Saint perspective, including the existence of other gods, including the potential for our exaltation through Christ's atonement.

And then?

Just have to be clear, the LDS do not have a Christian perspective, no matter how you try to make it fit, it doesn't. Saying you believe Jesus is the Creator does not present a complete view of LDS teaching. See your Book of Abraham, where it explicitly teaches GODS, plural, got together and formed creation from existing matter.

You should realize this is a pagan teaching to Catholic ears. Certainly doesn't have roots in Protestantism.

truthsave · #78 Apr 10, '12, 1:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebeccaJ

And then?

Just have to be clear, the LDS do not have a Christian perspective, no matter how you try to make it fit, it doesn't. Saying you believe Jesus is the Creator does not present a complete view of LDS teaching. See your Book of Abraham, where it explicitly teaches GODS, plural, got together and formed creation from existing matter.

You should realize this is a pagan teaching to Catholic ears. Certainly doesn't have roots in Protestantism.

This is what I don't understand. You should realize it, Living Waters7.
And then I don't think is a language advance, even though of course there is one since evidently English is not neither my first nor second language since I am Italian living in a French speaking part of Switzerland.
It is not question of getting an advantage.
I can explain to you what you say you didn't understand. But I am sure that if you would have made a little effort you would have understood it.

"What does "relative to chair" mean?
I have never heard that phrase used before.
So what? Just ask yourself what will differenziate us and Him in the LDS spirit world. Just hierarchy. Since we and Him would have been of the same nature in that world.

I am not sure what you mean by "political union".
You can find the meaning in John's Gospel. One as He and the Father is.
In LDS this union is not really a mistery (not even a mistery is considered the union between a man and a woman even though is said to be a mistery). Union, for LDS is like being on the same side willingly observing the same rules. So political not mistical.
This is the union with the Father from a LDS point of view.
If not what kind of union it is since there is a possibility for LDS members to become gods.

From a Christian point of view there is neither saintity nor eternal life outside the union with the Father. And this union is a complete total an unconceivable in our human situation.
The Holy Father is not a rewarding father for our act but a rewarding father for the realization of our fault, our sins and our weakness. For the courage of refusing the ignorance as consequence of our egoism. Things that are exalted everytime we try to get our own personal good. This is the only thing that get exaltation. Our egocentricity. Our own personal "small" good. Our small world that includes us and our family and everybody we love. And Jesus talked about this clearly.

The thing that is very strange is that mormons when things are said by non mormons they say these things are said incorrectly.

One of the best things studying Christianity is that from a Christian saint point of view the heaven is not really an heaven if some is out of it since it will be sadness for the one that is ot there. An LDS or a JW wait for their reward and if some is out is just out. Maybe not
you, but many of them.

And not to want to understand it it is not a language problem but attitude. This attitude starts ignoring Abhram in Genesis 18:22 with his intercession for Sodoma.
(it makes clear and easy that the interception of one could save many unworthy)
Here, at the very begining of the Bible you already can trace also the concept of intercession that LDS or JW just ignore or prefer to ignore since it would make them closer to Christianity.

I love a verse written in the Book of Enoch (not canonical except for the Euthiopian Orthodox).

God cannot curse what He blessed (talking about men), so He cursed his (men) ignorance.

Ignorance is what you want to ignore or prefer to ignore not what you cannot know.

Jerusha · #79 Apr 10, '12, 1:55 pm

Quote:

But I am sure that if you would have made a little effort you would have understood it.

But he doesn't WANT to understand.

LivingWaters7 · #80 Apr 10, '12, 9:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthsave

This is what I don't understand. You should realize it, Living Waters7.
And then I don't think is a language advance, even though of course there is one since evidently English is not neither my first nor second language since I am Italian living in a French speaking part of Switzerland.
It is not question of getting an advantage.
I can explain to you what you say you didn't understand. But I am sure that if you would have made a little effort you would have understood it.

"What does "relative to chair" mean?
I have never heard that phrase used before.
So what? Just ask yourself what will differenziate us and Him in the LDS spirit world. Just hierarchy. Since we and Him would have been of the same nature in that world.

It is clear in Latter-day Saint theology that because we are all children of God, and can be heirs of God and joint-heirs of Christ, we partake of the divine nature, yet God will always be our Father, and will always be above us. Jesus Christ will always be our Lord and Savior, and exaltation will not change that.

Quote:

I am not sure what you mean by "political union".
You can find the meaning in John's Gospel. One as He and the Father is.
In LDS this union is not really a mistery (not even a mistery is considered the union between a man and a woman even though is said to be a mistery). Union, for LDS is like being on the same side willingly observing the same rules. So political not mistical.
This is the union with the Father from a LDS point of view.
If not what kind of union it is since there is a possibility for LDS members to become gods.

Yes, Latter-day Saints agree with John 17's statement on us being one with each other even as the Father and the Son are one. We agree with this statement, and in our view, it points to a oneness of purpose and love. It isn't simply being on the same side willingly observing the same rules. It is about being so united in purpose, love, mind, power, wisdom, that they are united as one Godhead.

Quote:

From a Christian point of view there is neither saintity nor eternal life outside the union with the Father. And this union is a complete total an unconceivable in our human situation.

Latter-day Saints believe that eternal life is to live in the eternal presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, in the Celestial Kingdom, and to live the life that God lives, in His presence. Eternal life is only possible by the grace of God, through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Quote:

The Holy Father is not a rewarding father for our act but a rewarding father for the realization of our fault, our sins and our weakness. For the courage of refusing the ignorance as consequence of our egoism. Things that are exalted everytime we try to get our own personal good. This is the only thing that get exaltation. Our egocentricity. Our own personal "small" good. Our small world that includes us and our family and everybody we love. And Jesus talked about this clearly.

Right.

Quote:

The thing that is very strange is that mormons when things are said by non mormons they say these things are said incorrectly.

One of the best things studying Christianity is that from a Christian saint point of view the heaven is not really an heaven if some is out of it since it will be sadness for the one that is ot there. An LDS or a JW wait for their reward and if some is out is just out. Maybe not
you, but many of them.

I've never heard this perspective from a Latter-day Saint. We hope that we may be joined by our entire families in God's heavenly Kingdom. We even believe that God has provided a way for us to extend the blessings of the sacred ordinances of baptism, confirmation, ordination, endowment, etc to those that did not have the opportunity to accept them in this life, in the hope that they will accept them and join with all the faithful in God's eternal presence.

LivingWaters7 · #81 Apr 10, '12, 9:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerusha

But he doesn't WANT to understand.

Again, please see my posts above and demonstrate how I am trying to take advantage of language difference.

LivingWaters7 · #82 Apr 10, '12, 9:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebeccaJ

And then?

Just have to be clear, the LDS do not have a Christian perspective, no matter how you try to make it fit, it doesn't. Saying you believe Jesus is the Creator does not present a complete view of LDS teaching. See your Book of Abraham, where it explicitly teaches GODS, plural, got together and formed creation from existing matter.

You should realize this is a pagan teaching to Catholic ears. Certainly doesn't have roots in Protestantism.

I am well aware of how Catholics view our beliefs. The point is to present the Latter-day Saint view from the perspective of a believing Latter-day Saint, along with the bases for our beliefs, and I believe that the articles linked to do that. Catholics and others are entitled to their opinions on our faith.

RebeccaJ · #83 Apr 10, '12, 10:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LivingWaters7

I am well aware of how Catholics view our beliefs. The point is to present the Latter-day Saint view from the perspective of a believing Latter-day Saint, along with the bases for our beliefs, and I believe that the articles linked to do that. Catholics and others are entitled to their opinions on our faith.

Maybe i just need to spell it out for you. I am well aware that you tried to obfuscate what Mormonism believes about Jesus Christ as God and Creator.

Your repeated litany of "I'm just saing what we believe" doesn't change what you did.

LivingWaters7 · #84 Apr 10, '12, 10:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebeccaJ

Maybe i just need to spell it out for you. I am well aware that you tried to obfuscate what Mormonism believes about Jesus Christ as God and Creator.

Your repeated litany of "I'm just saing what we believe" doesn't change what you did.

And again, what I did say as well as what the article I linked to says demonstrate what Latter-day Saints believe on Jesus Christ as God and Creator, as well as the exaltation of God's children.

RebeccaJ · #85 Apr 10, '12, 10:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LivingWaters7

And again, what I did say as well as what the article I linked to says demonstrate what Latter-day Saints believe on Jesus Christ as God and Creator, as well as the exaltation of God's children.

Ok lw7, f you are unable discuss your own statements, why are you here? Just to post Jeff Lindsay Mormon apologetics links?

You might want to rethink that strategy. It's a pretty quick way to get banned and I wouldn't want that to happen so soon.

CopticChristian · #86 Apr 10, '12, 10:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LivingWaters7

And again, what I did say as well as what the article I linked to says demonstrate what Latter-day Saints believe on Jesus Christ as God and Creator, as well as the exaltation of God's children.

LW,

I see you list yourself as restored...restored from what?

LivingWaters7 · #87 Apr 10, '12, 10:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebeccaJ

Ok lw7, f you are unable discuss your own statements, why are you here? Just to post Jeff Lindsay Mormon apologetics links?

You might want to rethink that strategy. It's a pretty quick way to get banned and I wouldn't want that to happen so soon.

I have already discussed my statements, and have provided further expounding on them by posting links that do so. I am well aware of the Catholic view of our beliefs, as I stated in my initial post in this thread, and Catholics are entitled to their opinions. You repeatedly state that Latter-day Saints do not have a Christian perspective, are not Christians, have a pagan perspective etc etc., and that is a point that I addressed from the start, that yes, that's what Catholics believe, and that Latter-day Saints do not claim nor want to be traditional Christians. And that is what the topic of this thread was, whether Mormons are considered Protestants. That has already been addressed by me.

RebeccaJ · #88 Apr 10, '12, 10:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LivingWaters7

I have already discussed my statements, and have provided further expounding on them by posting links that do so. I am well aware of the Catholic view of our beliefs, as I stated in my initial post in this thread, and Catholics are entitled to their opinions. You repeatedly state that Latter-day Saints do not have a Christian perspective, are not Christians, have a pagan perspective etc etc., and that is a point that I addressed from the start, that yes, that's what Catholics believe, and that Latter-day Saints do not claim nor want to be traditional Christians. And that is what the topic of this thread was, whether Mormons are considered Protestants. That has already been addressed by me.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, that is, that you aren't really trying to be as obtuse as you seem to be.

A small review, specifically, you claimed Mormons believe Jesus is "the creator". You haven't addressed one thing I've said about this statement. It is not for Jeff Lindsay to respond, he is not even here. I'm not talking to him.

mwok · #89 Apr 10, '12, 10:38 pm

[quote=LivingWaters7;9167740]I've never heard this perspective from a Latter-day Saint. We hope that we may be joined by our entire families in God's heavenly Kingdom. We even believe that God has provided a way for us to extend the blessings of the sacred ordinances of baptism, confirmation, ordination, endowment, etc to those that did not have the opportunity to accept them in this life, in the hope that they will accept them and join with all the faithful in God's eternal presence.[/QUOTE]

So does that mean that it is never too late to accept LDS doctrine?

truthsave · #90 Apr 11, '12, 3:40 am

Living Waters 7,
your answers are exremely weak and aimed exclusively at deliberately creating confusion of values. I don't care if you try to make sense with what you say. The sentences in themselves make sense but the value behind that sentence are not Christian values.
Your sentences and meaning are comparable at a glass of sea water.
You say the sea is in that glass. In a way is not incorrect but only in a way. Saying that the sea is in that glass you put yourself in the most hideus positin of all. You want to make to believe to somebody that has neveer see the sea that the sea is in that glass. You are technically not lying but your lie is even deeper. A lie is not a lie or the truth is not the truth when technically correct.
If you would say, the water in that glass comes from the sea, but seen like that it looks the same that water from your bottle or from a lake or from the toilette, then it will show your effort in not wanting to mislead a person that doesn't know about the sea, that has never seen the sea. Your effort will be just not to make that person make a faulse analogie in his own rapresentation of the sea.
Mormons are deeply dishonests in the rappresentation of their faith.
They suggest people doing their same faulse analogie with Chrsitianity. The same dishonesty lie in the use of the Book of Mormon.

The answer you have given me don't explain what mormons believes but what they think they believe.
I don't feel the need to take the answer you have given me one after another one since each of them has the same inconclusiveness.
I take two of them.

I said: The Holy Father is not a rewarding father for our act but a rewarding father for the realization of our fault, our sins and our weakness. For the courage of refusing the ignorance as consequence of our egoism. Things that are exalted everytime we try to get our own personal good. This is the only thing that get exaltation. Our egocentricity. Our own personal "small" good. Our small world that includes us and our family and everybody we love. And Jesus talked about this clearly.

You have answered :
Right.
Right ok, but you don't say that this small personal world of family and marriage, is what give mormon access to exhaltation so it is right that is a small world or not?
You see you are deliberately misleading in not wanting to point out the real mormon value.

You say:
Latter-day Saints believe that eternal life is to live in the eternal presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, in the Celestial Kingdom, and to live the life that God lives, in His presence. Eternal life is only possible by the grace of God, through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

It is true that you believe this. But your God is not the Christian God, your Jesus is not the Gospel's Jesus and you are completely zapping the fact that you as mormon have access to the Celestial Kindom not only through what you stated in your sentence, also, but not only. You need to observe your law of wisdom, being married (strange before you agreed with me about the smallness of our personal family life), go to the temple and paying the dime and maybe something else.

In everything you say there is a will to decive and creating confusion. The most regreattable thing is the confusion of values.
You behave like a vendor that say the item you want to buy only cost $99.
But avoid to say a month for 12 months.
So you lied or didn't lie to the buyer?
The essence of a lie is in the purpose.