Pope reaffirms ban on women priests - Page 42

AngryAtheist8 · #**616** May 7, '12, 9:15 am

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8

I am glad that you admit that you're not debating me but merely preaching at me.
If I knew that from the beginning I wouldn't have bothered trying to debate you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lochias

And conversely, if I'd thought there was any hope of an actual debate, instead of a pages-long diatribe on the righteous, angst-y glory of how "right" you are, I'd have never bothered either. Signing off, brother.

Be consistent.
You already admitted that you were not interested in a debate

AngryAtheist8 · #**617** May 7, '12, 9:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lochias

And conversely, if I'd thought there was any hope of an actual debate, instead of a pages-long diatribe on the righteous, angst-y glory of how "right" you are, I'd have never bothered either. Signing off, brother.

You appear to be projecting.
You are the one who said:

A debate presumes that either side could be right. This is not the case. I am right, and you are wrong. I am telling you where to go for the facts underlining this. If you choose not to seek them out, it's no skin off mine. You can blame your own unwillingness to act.

-Moreover, most of your posts in this thread have a similar tone.

AngryAtheist8 · #**618** May 7, '12, 9:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsedriver

God is in charge is the only answer a believing Catholic can give you. The Pope with the Bishops, teach the truth on matters of faith and morals guided by the Holy Spirit (God). You can't separate God from His Church. You can't say that men make up the rules for their own benefit because that is the same as saying that God doesn't guide His Church. If you don't believe that God guides the Catholic Church then you don't become a member and you don't accept how the Church is run since you can't see the Church's reasoning behind Her teachings.

I can see the reasoning, there simply appears to be no good reason to believe it.
Saying that the Pope and Bishops don't lead the Church is to deny the hierarchal nature of the organization.
But even the Church admits that it has a hierarchy (link to source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07322c.htm).

Ranp · #**619** May 7, '12, 9:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHolyTrinity

Nowhere in Bible states that women can’t be priests. The Biblical does show examples of priesthood is reserved for men.

Please remember that for the Catholic Church the Word of God includes both Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition. Women absolutely cannot be ordained into the priesthood. It does not matter how much you are I disagree with it, or even if the Pope disagrees with it, it is not going to change.

Ran

AngryAtheist8 · #**620** May 7, '12, 9:25 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranp

Please remember that for the Catholic Church the Word of God includes both Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition. Women absolutely cannot be ordained into the priesthood. It does not matter how much you are I disagree with it, or even if the Pope disagrees with it, it is not going to change.

Ran

As I have said before, these would-be priestesses would be better off (or at least happier) simply leaving the Church.

**PRmerger** · #**621** May 7, '12, 9:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8

I have always thought that it was a bit wierd and disingenous to refer to the Catholic Church as a mother.
Its an organization, not a living thing.

As with all things approaching the numinous, words are only an approximation.

It is the best representation we have of what the Church is--a mother, in the spiritual sense.

Now, someone who has an inability to think in the abstract may find it puzzling and think, "How can it be a mother? Does it have breasts? Does it have a motherinlaw? Does it have a obstetrician?"

It is best, when discussing things spiritual, that one be able to understand analogies.

Quote:

Moreover, its an organization founded and led by men (with a male god).

Well, 'tis true that Jesus was a male. But it's absolutely incorrect to say that Christians worship a male god.

vsedriver · #**622** May 7, '12, 9:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8

Quote:

I can see the reasoning, there simply appears to be no good reason to believe it.

obeying God seems to be a good reason to me, but an atheist would be unable to see how this is a good reason to believe in Church teachings.

Quote:

Saying that the Pope and Bishops don't lead the Church is to deny the hierarchal nature of the organization.
But even the Church admits that it has a hierarchy (link to source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07322c.htm).

I never said that the Pope and the Bishop don't lead the Church. I said they do it under the guidance of God. Therefore I believe the structure of the Church is as God wants it to be. I believe that the teachings on faith and morals that the Pope with the Bishops teach are as God wants it to be.

Priesthood is reserved for males is a teaching on faith. It is not about power, authority, or equality. It is about what is the proper matter for the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Just as bread and wine are the proper matter for the Sacrament of the Eucharist and a man and a woman are proper matter for the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

There is no ban on women priests because there is no such thing as a woman priest according to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

vsedriver · #**623** May 7, '12, 9:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8

As I have said before, these would-be priestesses would be better off (or at least happier) simply leaving the Church.

Why would they be better off leaving the Church? How would it be better to leave the one true faith?

They might be happier in the short term... but we are here to prepare for the long term.

**Tantum ergo** · #**624** May 7, '12, 10:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsedriver

Why would they be better off leaving the Church? How would it be better to leave the one true faith?

They might be happier in the short term... but we are here to prepare for the long term.

Exactly. What is 'happiness' anyway? Lots of people are 'happy' when they fornicate, steal, lie, cheat, even kill. . .in that by doing these things they achieve some 'want' or 'desire' for themselves. Doesn't make what they do right, though.

True happiness consists in doing God's will because what He wills is always perfect, just, true, and good. . .

As opposed to imperfect and false 'earthly' happiness which is based on selfishness and purely ephemeral feelings of that SELF, and not with regard to any inkling or desire to give truth and goodness to others.

I certainly doubt that the young man urging the young woman to 'enjoy' sex outside of marriage is considering her long term 'good' or happiness. Sure, he might THINK that he 'loves' her, and that the sex is a way to 'show' that love, and so it will bring them 'happiness'. . .but does he want that happiness for all time or just for as long as he wants to have sex with HER? when he grows accustomed to her and then thinks that the relationship has run its course because he now wants sex with another, will he tell her that the HAPPINESS they had in the relationship before he dumped her was worth it?

AngryAtheist8 · #**625** May 7, '12, 11:02 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRmerger

As with all things approaching the numinous, words are only an approximation.

It is the best representation we have of what the Church is--a mother, in the spiritual sense.

Now, someone who has an inability to think in the abstract may find it puzzling and think, "How can it be a mother? Does it have breasts? Does it have a motherinlaw? Does it have a obstetrician?"

It is best, when discussing things spiritual, that one be able to understand analogies.

Well, 'tis true that Jesus was a male. But it's absolutely incorrect to say that Christians worship a male god.

You worship Jesus Christ.
Jesus was a man/male.
Jesus was also God.
Therefore you worship a male (or at least masculine) god.

Moreover, I can understand the analogies, I simply don't think that they fit (for the reasons I have already stated).

AngryAtheist8 · #**626** May 7, '12, 11:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsedriver

I never said that the Pope and the Bishop don't lead the Church. I said they do it under the guidance of God. Therefore I believe the structure of the Church is as God wants it to be. I believe that the teachings on faith and morals that the Pope with the Bishops teach are as God wants it to be.

Priesthood is reserved for males is a teaching on faith. It is not about power, authority, or equality. It is about what is the proper matter for the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Just as bread and wine are the proper matter for the Sacrament of the Eucharist and a man and a woman are proper matter for the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

There is no ban on women priests because there is no such thing as a woman priest according to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Then the leaders of the Church actually are male priests, which was my point.

AngryAtheist8 · #**627** May 7, '12, 11:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsedriver

Why would they be better off leaving the Church? How would it be better to leave the one true faith?

They might be happier in the short term... but we are here to prepare for the long term.

Because then they could join an organization that feels women are fit to lead (even in a spiritual setting).

AngryAtheist8 · #**628** May 7, '12, 11:09 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

Exactly. What is 'happiness' anyway? Lots of people are 'happy' when they fornicate, steal, lie, cheat, even kill. . .in that by doing these things they achieve some 'want' or 'desire' for themselves. Doesn't make what they do right, though.

True happiness consists in doing God's will because what He wills is always perfect, just, true, and good. . .

As opposed to imperfect and false 'earthly' happiness which is based on selfishness and purely ephemeral feelings of that SELF, and not with regard to any inkling or desire to give truth and goodness to others.

I certainly doubt that the young man urging the young woman to 'enjoy' sex outside of marriage is considering her long term 'good' or happiness. Sure, he might THINK that he 'loves' her, and that the sex is a way to 'show' that love, and so it will bring them 'happiness'. . .but does he want that happiness for all time or just for as long as he wants to have sex with HER? when he grows accustomed to her and then thinks that the relationship has run its course because he now wants sex with another, will he tell her that the HAPPINESS they had in the relationship before he dumped her was worth it?

So, your version of happiness (i.e. true happiness) has nothing to do with actually being happy.
Then why not simply use a different (and more accurate) word instead?

**PRmerger** · #**629** May 7, '12, 11:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8

You worship Jesus Christ.
Jesus was a man/male.
Jesus was also God.
Therefore you worship a male (or at least masculine) god.

The correct way to look at it, Angry, is that we worship Jesus Christ, who is God become Man.

God, the Father, is not male.

**PRmerger** · #**630** May 7, '12, 11:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8

Because then they could join an organization that feels women are fit to lead (even in a spiritual setting).

Women ARE fit to lead in the Catholic Church. Are you not aware of women abbesses? Women lay directors? Women Directors of Religious Education? Women principals of Catholic schools?

Women cannot be priests. That's different than women are not allowed to lead.