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  #1  
Old Apr 7, '12, 8:02 pm
Jaypeeto4 Jaypeeto4 is offline
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Unhappy ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

"Whatever is not of Faith, is Sin..." ----- Saint Paul, scripture

Dear brothers and sisters, a blessed Easter to all of you.
Some of you know my propensity toward scrupulosity, well it's here again,
and the Evil One knows it too, and used the Easter Vigil (which was beautiful tonight) AND the quote from Paul above, and is hammering me with it right now.

Here's what happened.
I took RCIA in 1998/99 and was received into the Church, along with others also baptized in other churches IN THE NAME OF THE TRINITY, as adults at the 1999 easter vigil.
Our priest prayed the confrimation prayers, and anointed us with the Chrism for confirmation. So all these twelve years I've considered myself a confirmed Catholic (albeit until recently a pretty lousy one).

Well, tonight, I'm there at the vigil, (I hadn't been to the easter Vigil mass in about 5 years), and there are new adult converts. Those adults who were being baptized were allowed to receive communion. Those being received from other churches were reminded that THEY would receive THEIR first communion a few weeks later when they go to the Cathedral to be confirmed by the Archbishop.
My head started spinning. What is THIS??? I thought. 4 of the adults I was confirmed with were received having been baptized in other churches, and were never,ever told that we had to later go to the Bishop to be confirmed in order to receive first communion.
I thought, what is going on here???? DoesTHIS mean that I was not validly confirmed, and the past 12 years have been a great big show??
I had a sudden rush of mixed emotions, like, should I receive communion tonight,
if I am not confirmed, to my surprise, after all??? But then I thought, no, that's not a sin,
because kids who are baptized as babies receive communion from the age of 7 and up and are NOT confirmed, so receiving communion without being confirmed is not a sin.
Or is it? Maybe? NO, it CAN'T be, I've been receiving for ages. I was reallly confused with a jumble of thoughts, and COULDN'T "raise my hand" in the Mass and ask a question. But I was really wondering whether I was validly confirmed now, after 12 years, and should I receive communion?? I would never desecrate the body of Christ, but I reasoned that since unconfirmed, baptized-only 7 year olds receive the Eucharist regularly, and they aren't sinning, I would receive at this Vigil, BUT, I was then going to find out THIS NIGHT if my 1999 confirmation was valid, or did my priest back then do something wrong and FAIL to have us properly confirmed by the bishop??? ((none of us was EVER told to go see the bishop for Confirmation, and the priest knew we had been baptized in other churches, and gave us communion that very night, and always thereafter,but what if he had been wrong???)) I was truly confused and more than a bit angry, too.
But I said, darn it, I **believe** I was confirmed, I have operated on that principle for 12 years, and I'll receive tonight therefore, and if it does turn out I'm not confirmed, then I'll confess and arrange to be validly confirmed and won't receive a eucharist again, if I'm told not to, until I AM confirmed by the bishop.
SO I received. I'm wondering if it was a sin to do this,
as my mind had suddenly become a jumble of doubts.
Immediately after the blessing, I went to the RCIA director, and told her my situation.
She laughed and assured me that I had, indeed , been validly confirmed in 1999 by my priest, because he had, all our priests had, a dispensation to administer Confirmation to all adult converts, bapitzed as well as unbaptized. I breathed a sigh of relief, thanked her, and THANKED GOD, and left happy. But then the quote from Paul started popping into my head (I'm sorry but this isn't my own mere human scrupulosity. This is the devil quoting scripture against me, like he did to our LORD to try and get him to jump off the top of the Temple)). And it's working. I'm now worried that because I had a measure of doubt about being validly confirmed, and still received communion ((even though it TURNED OUT I had nothing at all to be concerned about)), whether I committed a grave sin because I was beset with a jumble of perplexing and confusing doubts??
Could any priests on the forums, or brothers, or Sisters, (religious), or good theologians who may read this, or others with knowledge,
please let me know?? This confusion at the Vigil threw a real monkeywrench, spiritually, into an otherwise wonderful Easter Vigil service.
I would never intentionally sin against the body of Christ, but with doubts, I feel that I took that chance, and now I'm scared, and "Old Scratch", as C.S. LEWIS calls our infernal enemy, knows that I am scared to death of committing a sacrilegious communion, even in conscience. I don't know what to do or think right now.
God love all of you, and happy Easter.
Jaypeeto4

Last edited by Jaypeeto4; Apr 7, '12 at 8:19 pm. Reason: BIG TYPO
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  #2  
Old Apr 7, '12, 8:13 pm
Jaypeeto4 Jaypeeto4 is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

I should add, to the above post, for clarification,
that our RCIA director further informed me that that dispensation to administer
confirmation to adult, baptized converts from other churches, was WITHDRAWN
by our New, current Archbishop about a year or so ago, which I did not know.
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  #3  
Old Apr 7, '12, 8:18 pm
StrawberryJam StrawberryJam is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

I'm wondering where the mortal sin comes into play here since we both know there are 3 conditions for it.
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  #4  
Old Apr 7, '12, 8:23 pm
Jaypeeto4 Jaypeeto4 is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

Hi,
I know there are 3 conditions, but Paul said "whatever is not of Faith, is sin" and I did not have 100% faith, at the moment, that I had been VALIDLY confirmed 12 years ago.
So I was worried I **might** be sinning by receiving, and still received any way, because I refused to believe that I WOULD be sinning, because I was mad that I was suddenly faced with this bolt out of the blue, confusing dilemma right in the middle of Mass, that I had prepared for, and on no less than Easter Sunday, which really upset and angered me.
I felt like,WHY is this being sprung on me NOW, after 12 years, right in the middle of Mass/???
I felt like it might be the devil trying to get me to not receive, since He knows I always
feel better after I do...
But still, I had DOUBTS about whether receiving was the right thing to do.
So I'm wondering if receiving, with those doubts, was a grave sin,
since we are talking about the Body of Christ here.
Peace and blessings,
Jaypeeto4
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  #5  
Old Apr 7, '12, 8:51 pm
StrawberryJam StrawberryJam is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaypeeto4 View Post
Hi,
I know there are 3 conditions, but Paul said "whatever is not of Faith, is sin" and I did not have 100% faith, at the moment, that I had been VALIDLY confirmed 12 years ago.
So I was worried I **might** be sinning by receiving, and still received any way, because I refused to believe that I WOULD be sinning, because I was mad that I was suddenly faced with this bolt out of the blue, confusing dilemma right in the middle of Mass, that I had prepared for, and on no less than Easter Sunday, which really upset and angered me.
I felt like,WHY is this being sprung on me NOW, after 12 years, right in the middle of Mass/???
I felt like it might be the devil trying to get me to not receive, since He knows I always
feel better after I do...
But still, I had DOUBTS about whether receiving was the right thing to do.
So I'm wondering if receiving, with those doubts, was a grave sin,
since we are talking about the Body of Christ here.
Peace and blessings,
Jaypeeto4
I'm sorry I really did not understand what was going on at the time.
Still, I think you did act in accordance with what you were led to believe by others as being just and right at that time, and were not informed fully.
I can not speak for you, but that is what it sounds like on my end.
You did everything in accord with your concience at the time you did it and were instructed by the leaders in charge at that time of your spiritual guidance.
You trusted them. That is faith.
You did have faith in them.
You expected that they would fully inform you of what you were undertaking.
That is not an abstract idea.
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  #6  
Old Apr 7, '12, 8:55 pm
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WoundedIcon WoundedIcon is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

In terms of moral theology we should be concerned about the matter (or object) of the sin here which is, as you quote Paul as saying, your conscience. Even though it involved the Eucharist, the Eucharist wasn't the matter of the sin, so you're fine. You violated your conscience, not Jesus, and that's only venial. And honestly, your doubts about the doubts were your conscience too, so you may not have even committed a venial sin at all because you technically followed your conscience!
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Old Apr 7, '12, 9:31 pm
StrawberryJam StrawberryJam is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

Quote:
Originally Posted by WoundedIcon View Post
In terms of moral theology we should be concerned about the matter (or object) of the sin here which is, as you quote Paul as saying, your conscience. Even though it involved the Eucharist, the Eucharist wasn't the matter of the sin, so you're fine. You violated your conscience, not Jesus, and that's only venial. And honestly, your doubts about the doubts were your conscience too, so you may not have even committed a venial sin at all because you technically followed your conscience!
Okay, quick question. Many people say rape is a crime of violence, not sex.
Does this work with your moral theology?
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  #8  
Old Apr 7, '12, 9:43 pm
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triumphguy triumphguy is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

1. You don't need to be confirmed in order to receive the Eucharist.
2. I'm 99.9% certain you were validly confirmed by the priest. My wife was confirmed by the parish priest when she became RC from the Anglican Church. Just check with your priest, or check (ask the parish office for) your copy of your RCIA/confirmation certificate.
3. The Eucharist is a sacrament of reconciliation and of healing too: just accept the healing and forgiveness into your heart.

And have a Happy and Peaceful Easter.
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  #9  
Old Apr 7, '12, 9:47 pm
George Stegmeir George Stegmeir is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaypeeto4 View Post
"Whatever is not of Faith, is Sin..." ----- Saint Paul, scripture

Dear brothers and sisters, a blessed Easter to all of you.
Some of you know my propensity toward scrupulosity, well it's here again,
and the Evil One knows it too, and used the Easter Vigil (which was beautiful tonight) AND the quote from Paul above, and is hammering me with it right now.

Here's what happened.
I took RCIA in 1998/99 and was received into the Church, along with others also baptized in other churches IN THE NAME OF THE TRINITY, as adults at the 1999 easter vigil.
Our priest prayed the confrimation prayers, and anointed us with the Chrism for confirmation. So all these twelve years I've considered myself a confirmed Catholic (albeit until recently a pretty lousy one).

Well, tonight, I'm there at the vigil, (I hadn't been to the easter Vigil mass in about 5 years), and there are new adult converts. Those adults who were being baptized were allowed to receive communion. Those being received from other churches were reminded that THEY would receive THEIR first communion a few weeks later when they go to the Cathedral to be confirmed by the Archbishop.
My head started spinning. What is THIS??? I thought. 4 of the adults I was confirmed with were received having been baptized in other churches, and were never,ever told that we had to later go to the Bishop to be confirmed in order to receive first communion.
I thought, what is going on here???? DoesTHIS mean that I was not validly confirmed, and the past 12 years have been a great big show??
I had a sudden rush of mixed emotions, like, should I receive communion tonight,
if I am not confirmed, to my surprise, after all??? But then I thought, no, that's not a sin,
because kids who are baptized as babies receive communion from the age of 7 and up and are NOT confirmed, so receiving communion without being confirmed is not a sin.
Or is it? Maybe? NO, it CAN'T be, I've been receiving for ages. I was reallly confused with a jumble of thoughts, and COULDN'T "raise my hand" in the Mass and ask a question. But I was really wondering whether I was validly confirmed now, after 12 years, and should I receive communion?? I would never desecrate the body of Christ, but I reasoned that since unconfirmed, baptized-only 7 year olds receive the Eucharist regularly, and they aren't sinning, I would receive at this Vigil, BUT, I was then going to find out THIS NIGHT if my 1999 confirmation was valid, or did my priest back then do something wrong and FAIL to have us properly confirmed by the bishop??? ((none of us was EVER told to go see the bishop for Confirmation, and the priest knew we had been baptized in other churches, and gave us communion that very night, and always thereafter,but what if he had been wrong???)) I was truly confused and more than a bit angry, too.
But I said, darn it, I **believe** I was confirmed, I have operated on that principle for 12 years, and I'll receive tonight therefore, and if it does turn out I'm not confirmed, then I'll confess and arrange to be validly confirmed and won't receive a eucharist again, if I'm told not to, until I AM confirmed by the bishop.
SO I received. I'm wondering if it was a sin to do this,
as my mind had suddenly become a jumble of doubts.
Immediately after the blessing, I went to the RCIA director, and told her my situation.
She laughed and assured me that I had, indeed , been validly confirmed in 1999 by my priest, because he had, all our priests had, a dispensation to administer Confirmation to all adult converts, bapitzed as well as unbaptized. I breathed a sigh of relief, thanked her, and THANKED GOD, and left happy. But then the quote from Paul started popping into my head (I'm sorry but this isn't my own mere human scrupulosity. This is the devil quoting scripture against me, like he did to our LORD to try and get him to jump off the top of the Temple)). And it's working. I'm now worried that because I had a measure of doubt about being validly confirmed, and still received communion ((even though it TURNED OUT I had nothing at all to be concerned about)), whether I committed a grave sin because I was beset with a jumble of perplexing and confusing doubts??
Could any priests on the forums, or brothers, or Sisters, (religious), or good theologians who may read this, or others with knowledge,
please let me know?? This confusion at the Vigil threw a real monkeywrench, spiritually, into an otherwise wonderful Easter Vigil service.
I would never intentionally sin against the body of Christ, but with doubts, I feel that I took that chance, and now I'm scared, and "Old Scratch", as C.S. LEWIS calls our infernal enemy, knows that I am scared to death of committing a sacrilegious communion, even in conscience. I don't know what to do or think right now.
God love all of you, and happy Easter.
Jaypeeto4
Do yourself a very big favor: Instead of seeking an answer from anonymous people-some of whom may or may not be even Catholic(regardless of what they say) or who may not be properly chatechised- on the internet, why not seek out a Jesuit, Dominican, or Franciscan Parish in your area and make an appointment to see a priest. These orders of priests are far more qualified to answer your questions that anyone here or your average RCIA director. As an example, most Jesuit and Dominican Priests have Doctorets in Catholic Theology-they just don't advertise it or wear it on their sleeves. And, you will be able to get your answer under the seal of the confessional if you want.
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  #10  
Old Apr 7, '12, 9:51 pm
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triumphguy triumphguy is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

Or just check your RCIA certificate
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  #11  
Old Apr 7, '12, 9:53 pm
Edmundus1581 Edmundus1581 is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrawberryJam View Post
I'm sorry I really did not understand what was going on at the time.
Still, I think you did act in accordance with what you were led to believe by others as being just and right at that time, and were not informed fully.
I can not speak for you, but that is what it sounds like on my end.
You did everything in accord with your concience at the time you did it and were instructed by the leaders in charge at that time of your spiritual guidance.
You trusted them. That is faith.
You did have faith in them.
You expected that they would fully inform you of what you were undertaking.
That is not an abstract idea.
Hi StrawberryJam. I agree with your thoughts that JP2 was right to follow the instructions of his (or her?) leaders at the time, but I would go further and say that those instructions were 100% correct. At the time he was confirmed his priest had a dispensation from the Bishop to perform confirmation. This is completely valid. Therefore, Jp was validly confirmed 13 years ago, and was not, and has not, been lacking in any instruction.

The Bishop has now withdrawn that dispensation, but that cannot be retrospective, and I am sure there is not the slightest intention to require any action in regard to those who have been previously confirmed under the dispensation.

Last edited by Edmundus1581; Apr 7, '12 at 10:08 pm.
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  #12  
Old Apr 7, '12, 9:55 pm
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PeterGStanley PeterGStanley is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

Exactly - you should have a certificate of confirmation or one should be available that has the details of your confirmation.
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  #13  
Old Apr 7, '12, 9:57 pm
Qoeleth Qoeleth is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

No, in the RCIA, the priest is authorised to confirm. He does not require the Bishop's permission. Even if he did- it would not affect the validity.And even if you weren't confirmed, that is not obstacle to receiving Eucharist licitly. And even if you did not receive it licitly, that would not affect the validity.

You have nothing to worry about.
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  #14  
Old Apr 7, '12, 10:00 pm
Edmundus1581 Edmundus1581 is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

Quote:
But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats [some foods], because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. (Rom 14:23)
NB: The reference is to food, rather than the eucharist.

Yours is an interesting observation, Jp. I myself have wondered about that quote, which seems to say that if we think something may be a sin, then it is a sin for us, even if it is not objectively so. And yet, the scrupulous are advised over and over to not be dominated by their scruples.

It's a good question, and I'm interested in the responses.

As you seem to indicate, there is no problem with your confirmation 13 years ago, and the only problem is that you were briefly confused and decided to receive communion when in a state of doubt. I have no concern whatever that this was a sin of any degree, but I am curious as to how this scripture applies
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  #15  
Old Apr 7, '12, 10:05 pm
Jason Firestone Jason Firestone is offline
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Default Re: ANOTHER Serious MORTAL SIN QUESTION

[quote=Jaypeeto4;9156520Our priest prayed the confrimation prayers, and anointed us with the Chrism for confirmation. [/QUOTE]

The "original minister" for the Sacrament of Confirmation is a bishop. Canon Law
says that priests may administer Confirmation, under certain circumstances, including the one you mention. http://catholicexchange.com/can-a-pr...-confirmation/
See Canons 879-896. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM


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