Life after death........that is THE question....................

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by itullian

God, the Universe, the Bible, Mary, Jesus

all mean NOTHING if there's no life after death. And i don't mean ambiguous life,i mean self identity, take what you learned with you life. right?

Right. IMO. The most important thing anyone ever learns is that life is eternal. Not after we die, right now. This is the part I know for sure.

I believe what we take, besides self-awareness, is knowledge and love. I believe the amount of the first we have and the amount of the second we do, determines on which step of the long stairway that leads to the Presence of God we land when we pass.

But knowing we never die is of paramount importance. I think Jesus went to a lot if trouble to make that clear to us.

[itullian]

i wish i could believe it.

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by itullian

i wish i could believe it.

Think about the things you do believe. Why do you believe them?

I think we believe things for only a few reasons. Experience is one: we believe because we experience it ourselves. Enculturation is another: most believe you should wait 30 minutes after you eat to go swimming so you don't get cramps. "Everybody knows that." Authority is another way we decide what to believe: the teacher says the sun is 96 million miles away, the test question is marked "wrong" if we don't write that, so, we believe the sun is 96 million miles away.

But let's say someone in a forum tells you that chimpanzees make tools. You don't believe it. But the person is not an idiot, you don't think, but still...

...so you go research it yourself.

So I'm wondering if you know why you have not come to belief. Eternal life is a fact, not a matter of faith. So is the phenomena of ice caps melting. So is the fact that Carbon Poker is rigged. But a lot of people don't believe those things.

Maybe you need to research it for yourself.

[itullian]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

Think about the things you do believe. Why do you believe them?

I think we believe things for only a few reasons. Experience is one: we believe because we experience it ourselves. Enculturation is another: most believe you should wait 30 minutes after you eat to go swimming so you don't get cramps. "Everybody knows that." Authority is another way we decide what to believe: the teacher says the sun is 96 million miles away, the test question is marked "wrong" if we don't write that, so, we believe the sun is 96 million miles away.

But let's say someone in a forum tells you that chimpanzees make tools. You don't believe it. But the person is not an idiot, you don't think, but still...

...so you go research it yourself.

So I'm wondering if you know why you have not come to belief. Eternal life is a fact, not a matter of faith. So is the phenomena of ice caps melting. So is the fact that Carbon Poker is rigged. But a lot of people don't believe those things.

Maybe you need to research it for yourself.

a fact? how so?

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by itullian

a fact? how so?

Go find out.

[ASimon]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

Go find out.

FWIW, I happen to agree that the existence of an afterlife is a fact. Not that it's true - but that it's a claim that can be either proven or disproven (at least, in principle).

That said, blithely telling someone to "go research" a claim like this is a bit silly. If you want to believe in it, you simply have no choice but to take it on faith.

[Moontown_Rabbit]

Originally Posted by itullian

i wish i could believe it.

I can remember very clearly the day (or week, or month, or year, whatever) when I realized what it was that Christ offers to us. I had just as hard a time accepting it as you appear to be having. It had nothing to do with any logical difficulties or metaphysical squabbles, it was simply because it seemed too wonderful, too good, too "exactly what I wanted" for it to be true. We live in such a cynical, glum, resigned world that even something naturally joyful is regarded with suspicion. We are trained to live in a climate of temporal despair and are almost comfortable doing so. This makes the transition to immortal hope a difficult one. Every time the thought "it is too good to be true" pops into your head you should fight it off with the thought "Christ is too good not to be true."

[Gaber]

Originally Posted by itullian

God, the Universe, the Bible, Mary, Jesus

all mean NOTHING if there's no life after death. And i don't mean ambiguous life,i mean self identity, take what you learned with you life. right?

i'm having trouble thinking this is real. seems so fantastic i just can't believe it.
how do we believe in something so fantastic?

and nothing makes any sense or means anything if we're just dirt, but...............

don't know, but there it is, right?

Each of us has a feeling of being "I" which doesnt change no matter who we think we are or how we change personally. And one of the things in personality that does change, and can change in radical ways, is the depth and breadth of what we understan little words such as I, God, and Life to mean. For instance, a finer distinction can be made by saying, eg, that living is what life does. So living is an activity, while life is what allows living to happen. So then we have life as an abstract that is continuous, and individuals, gazzilons of them, who live as an aspect of life as aprinciple. So in a sense, there is no begining or end to life or living, only to what appears as an individual instance of being alive.

So since there appears to be a continuity of life that is composed of instances of individuals liviing, we seem to have a need for explaingi why that is so. And we try to explaiin it in our classic and mostly fruitless way of putting the whole thing outside ourselves and only looking at what things look like and how behave relative to one another.
We externalize the reasons for our world and what we see in it and make it flat, adopting the view that there is me, and there is the world. That is Original Sin.

We mistake our sense of person for what the feeliing of I points to. And then we have a bad time because we think that when we say I we mean who we are, not what we are. And discovering what we are is what mystics do. It looks to us that they are looking for God, and that is right, but in the quest for discovering what that relationship is, it is inevitable to find out what one is, relative to God. And as that propgresses, some interesting things happen, mostly that are not talked about, because if you haven't been there, it just doesn't mean a darned thing,

Of course, there are teachings about this, but they are about as useful as a book on swimming until you get in the water, or a picture of water when you are thirsty. But when you jump in or dirink, it is a different story. So if you know the book, you can piously say "in this instance, blah, blah, blah blah, blah. And you have a blah situation if you've been there and know what floating feels like, and how it is to stop being thirsty, my friend.

So that is what religions are about. They keep you interested and working, one way or another, until you can't stand it and start really looking inside for some real answers. And of course you will be told that there are no answerts inside, because they are in a church or in a book. Anyone of any faith has this. But that is OK for a start and a provocation, thatis, material to work with, until you discover some very interesting things. Then you will not need to ask such questions because the answer is simple and the world changes for you, you see that sense and soul are good friends, and it is all Good.

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by ASimon

FWIW, I happen to agree that the existence of an afterlife is a fact. Not that it's true - but that it's a claim that can be either proven or disproven (at least, in principle).

That said, blithely telling someone to "go research" a claim like this is a bit silly. If you want to believe in it, you simply have no choice but to take it on faith.

Your two opinions seem to contradict each other. If it is a fact, something that can be proven or disproven, why would anyone have to "take it on faith?"

As for myself, I think nothing can be proven or disproven to a mind already made up. Mostly, we believe things for the reason I have stated, and even in experiencing something ourselves, we might get a fact, something that exists, wrong.

If someone wants to believe, as OP stated, he needs to go find out about his topic. Research it himself. Find what evidence exists. Come to a conclusion.

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by Gaber

And of course you will be told that there are no answerts inside, because they are in a church or in a book. Anyone of any faith has this.

I am Catholic. ALL the answers are inside, as Christ lives in me. Also in you. Some people are satisfied with having someone give them answers. They trust the authority of a church or a book. Some find the answers inside, and then supplement their understanding through Church and Book. Or some combination of processes.

[ASimon]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

Your two opinions seem to contradict each other. If it is a fact, something that can be proven or disproven, why would anyone have to "take it on faith?"

Because the key words here were, "in principle." Either there is an eternal life, or there isn't. That we are in no position to know the answer to this question does not mean that the question does not have an answer. If eternal life is real, anyone currently dead knows that it's real. If it's not, anyone currently dead "knows" that too (if they were in any position to "know" anything).

Until we know for certain whether there is eternal life, anyone who wants to believe in it is forced to take it on faith.

If someone wants to believe, as OP stated, he needs to go find out about his topic. Research it himself. Find what evidence exists. Come to a conclusion.

Interesting choice of words here - "If someone wants to believe..." I agree - if you want to believe, especially in something like having a life that never has to end, there are lots of people and sources willing to tell you that. It seems to me that that anyone who starts their research wanting to reach a particular conclusion is leaving themselves wide open for confirmation bias.

It seems to me that a truly open-ended search for what's real on this subject who have to begin with the understanding that there is nobody alive today with special authority to speak on whether life is truly eternal.

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by ASimon

Interesting choice of words here - "If someone wants to believe..." I agree - if you want to believe, especially in something like having a life that never has to end, there are lots of people and sources willing to tell you that. It seems to me that that anyone who starts their research wanting to reach a particular conclusion is leaving themselves wide open for confirmation bias.

I'm taking your points out-of-order. Below, you wrote something that clearly illustrates your bias on this topic:

Because the key words here were, "in principle." Either there is an eternal life, or there isn't. That we are in no position to know the answer to this question ...

You state as fact: "we are in no position to know the answer to this question." You have decided for some reason, no one can know. Everything you follow with is based on this premise. Yet, you cannot substantiate your own assertion that:

Until we know for certain whether there is eternal life, anyone who wants to believe in it is forced to take it on faith.

About bias. You said:

It seems to me that that anyone who starts their research wanting to reach a particular conclusion is leaving themselves wide open for confirmation bias.

But then hardly any research would get done. Research is usually sparked by an idea, an hypothesis one seeks to validate or disprove. For instance, someone notices the consistency of the iridium layer at the KT boundary and says, "Hey! What if a huge meteor strike caused this?" Then they go and look for evidence of huge meteor strikes. Believe me, they were convinced before they started. You can read about it.

They also got argued with a lot. What do we know for sure? Are you more likey to believe a big meteor killed off the dinosaurs or that life is eternal? You also said:

It seems to me that a truly open-ended search for what's real on this subject who have to begin with the understanding that there is nobody alive today with special authority to speak on whether life is truly eternal.

Really? No one on earth, in all the billions has the authority of experience or derived authority or any other kind to speak on this topic? Why would you say that? How many have you interviewed?

Now, I am fine with you believing whatever you like. Yet, you seem to want to stifle inquiry, you want to convince that there is no purpose in research into the topic because of things you believe without having any evidence yourself.

Life is eternal. This is not something I believe. It's something I know for a fact. But I can't make anyone else know it. I can say: go look into it. I do wish you would not try and discourage people from doing so. If your choice is not to do research and you are satisfied with your own position of: "I can't know until after death," that's certainly fine. For you.

Doesn't seem to be what OP is satisfied with, though.

It's okay with you if he looks into this, isn't it? If he wishes to?

[ASimon]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

I'm taking your points out-of-order. Below, you wrote something that clearly illustrates your bias on this topic:

You state as fact: "we are in no position to know the answer to this question." You have decided for some reason, no one can know. Everything you follow with is based on this premise.

It is, and it continues to be. Nobody alive can know for a fact that life is eternal. They can wish it to be true. They can believe it with deep conviction. But, it seems that, in addition to be an unfalsifiable claim, it cannot be known by any living person. This seems self-evident to me. Despite my skepticism, it might turn out to be true. But the claim seems to preclude any living human being from knowing it's true.

But then hardly any research would get done. Research is usually sparked by an idea, an hypothesis one seeks to validate or disprove. For instance, someone notices the consistency of the iridium layer at the KT boundary and says, "Hey! What if a huge meteor strike caused this?" Then they go and look for evidence of huge meteor strikes. Believe me, they were convinced before they started. You can read about it.

Sorry, but this is not comparing like with like. Noticing evidence of an element and suggesting a hypothesis for why it's there is not the same as wanting to believe that a meteor hit the earth, and then trying to find supporting evidence for it.

The former scenario might not guarantee you wind up with the correct answer, but the latter scenario is barely a serious investigation at all. If you want something to be true, and if the stakes are high enough in your own mind, what sort of evidence would it take for you to concede that the claim is refuted?

Really? No one on earth, in all the billions has the authority of experience or derived authority or any other kind to speak on this topic? Why would you say that? How many have you interviewed?

I have another one for you, and it goes even farther than saying nobody can know that eternal life is a fact. I presume to assert, baldly, and without ambiguity, that there are no four-legged creatures living on the surface of the moon. I insist that this is not only a fact, but a TRUE fact as well.

Now then....what is your response? Do you insist that I interview every living lunar scientist to substantiate this claim? Would I have to interview everyone who's actually walked on the moon to get their take on this? Or do I need to go there and explore the moon myself, before I'd be fit to make such a claim?

My point is that it does not do to simply throw the question to the wind and say that since I haven't interviewed anybody, I have no grounds to say that nobody can know we have eternal life. I do have grounds to say this, because the claim defies any serious inquiry of that sort. In simple, practical terms, who would know whether eternal life is real or not? To me, it's only one singular category of people - dead people. Who don't pick up the phone when we call them, which makes them lousy interview subjects. After that, we have people who claim to have had NDEs. Leaving aside the question of why being dead for a short time would make you any sort of expert on eternal life, NDE claims are also counter-balanced by the claims of folks who have died, been brought back, and reported no NDEs. How does this evidence factor into the scheme of things?

Now, I am fine with you believing whatever you like. Yet, you seem to want to stifle inquiry, you want to convince that there is no purpose in research into the topic because of things you believe without having any evidence yourself.

Not true. I'm saying that, in general, starting any investigation with the desire to prove a particular claim is true, is usually a bad recipe for learning anything. "Seek and ye shall find" - that's basically true. If you want something to be true badly enough, it's only a matter of seeking the evidence that supports it until you've found it.

And specifically, I can only repeat - the parameters of this claim seem preclude any living human being from having any special authority or knowledge of eternal life. I noticed that you didn't offer the OP any specific guidance of whom to talk to or what books to read. So what about a psychic medium? They claim to be in touch with "the other side." Since you claim to know that eternal life is a fact, would it be worthwhile for the OP to speak with someone claiming the ability to communicate with the dead?

[itullian]

we won't know it when we die unless there IS an afterlife, otherwise we'll be non existant and know nothing..............

[Kathryn Ann]

Ah, but God is drawing you near Him in this forum, isn't He? Through your questions, you show that you are searching!

You are beloved of God. Fear not.

It's all true. Christ came as surely as you are reading this. All roads lead to Rome, and to the Founder of the Catholic Church.

The world is divided into B.C. and A.D. not for nothing! God knew you "In your mother's womb," and wants you to draw near.

The history and truth of it are not phantasms or fantasy, but a truth you are seeking. Please stop by the nearest Catholic parish and pray, observe the Mass respectfully.

Talk to a priest about your concerns, and the rest will come to you.

You are beloved of God, and He is always drawing souls nearer and nearer to Him, even through questions like yours which seem to push Him away.

The Resurrection power is true, holy and the love behind Christ's sacrifice cannot be discounted.
Please come back to the forums and let us know how you are.
May your day be blessed!
Kathryn Ann