My atheist boyfriend and I

[flick26]

Originally Posted by Julian0404

Mart Twain was atheist and he married a christian woman who was intent on converting him. When she died, she was also atheist as his strong personality and arguments caused her to lose the faith.
You are already agreeing with this man on "non-christian concepts" regarding how to raise any future children. He has already swayed you from the foundation of your true faith.
Walk away, you have already started to surrender to please him, just walk away - he knows the reason, this is no long good bye, your soul is in danger if you continue to confuse your faith with his "reasoning".

I just want to make it clear that I have not surrendered to ANY of his concepts. My provisional idea on how to raise my future children was a decision I made long before I met him and it's a decision that I have justified in previous posts. I think it is unfair that you are just assuming this.

[flick26]

Originally Posted by joanofarc2008

Couple of other questions as this will impact your marriage:

How does he feel about contraception/NFP?

How does he feel about getting married in the Church?

Does he understand that pre-engagement sessions with a priest will be a requirement?

How has he been about chastity prior to marriage?

We have discussed contraception (I know the Catholic teaching says be open to life but I really don't want more than two children) and also agreed on no pre-marital sex. He does not mind getting married in the Church (must be down to some of his dad's influence) but it was actually him who warned me that the marriage would not be sacramental and not valid in the eyes of Catholicism and God(?). Yes he knows and he is a virgin.

[LilyM]

Originally Posted by VeritasLuxMea

Hm, someone said that before and I was baffled by it then, too. I thought you could leave the Faith without being "jumped out," so to speak.

Can one not undo baptism by renouncing their baptism in words and formally expressing their rejection of the Holy Spirit and all of its works?

Nope. The analogy I use is your biological parents. They give you and any biological siblings DNA. You have it from the moment you are conceived.

No matter what you try to do to cut ties in later life if you don't like them - move away, change your name, send them letters formally severing all ties or dance on their graves - you cannot sever that DNA link.

And that relationship will always carry certain implications and responsibilities - you cannot ever marry a biological parent or sibling as you can a non-relative, for example.

[Cinette]

Originally Posted by flick26

Hi all, I'm new to this board and I'm just looking for some objective views on my situation and I apologise in advance for the long post!
...................................

When our relationship started getting serious at around 6 months in, we seriously discussed the future of our relationship in relation to religion and the upbringing of any children we might have. If we saw any problems, we would split up right there and then to avoid further hurt. He did not oppose to me bringing up our children in Catholicism (this included attending church, baptism, he was about dubious regarding their first holy communion) but stressed that they should be aware of other religions or the concept of no religion at all and they can make their choice when they reach that age (they could either be confirmed into the Catholic church or go down a different path). I agreed with this, as I want my children to be entirely sure of their faith and not feel like they are forced into my religion as many of my peers feel. (My parents taught me about Catholicism but never forced anything upon me and I feel that this ultimately made my faith stronger than it would have been if I felt like they wanted me to.)Your boyfriend sound like a good man to me. Remember that when we reach heaven we are likely to find a number of atheists there too! Of course that implies that they convert even if it is at the moment of death! My husband was an atheist and at one time he was a communist sympathiser (lived under fascism) His parents were also communist sympathisers and atheists although his Mother changed a few years before her death.

Of course, it would be more ideal if I married a Catholic man but I have fallen in love with my boyfriend and there is no one else that I could ever imagine spending my life with. This might be part of God's plan for you both! You have your work cut out for you! He treats me so well, he is loving and supportive and the most important thing is that he never patronises my beliefs or tries to convert me to atheism.
But here is the problem, our views on religion and science (e.g. the purpose of evolution) are so different and we always agree to disagree. But is this how I want my children to be raised? In a household where mom and dad can't even agree on this huge topic? Mom believes in God but dad doesn't really and doesn't like religion? I want my children to grow up in a solid household with firm beliefs. If we are married, who will I turn to for spiritual advice? If I lose God, who will help me find him? Apart from my father and my mother, no one it seems. This is causing me great conflict but is my worry worth me destroying my entire relationship? I have always guided myself with my faith, none of my friends were Catholic, in times of hardship with my faith I read books and the Bible and searched the internet. I have never relied on anyone.I think you need to study more about the Faith so that you can instruct your children. Apologetics is terrible important as it gives you the reasons why you believe what you believe. When I returned to the Church after 27 years I realised that had I been FULLY catechised I would never have left the Church. With this tool you would assist in the proper formation of your children and, who knows, your husband could become interested! Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit's job!

So does this mean I should break up with my boyfriend of 2 years? No!I have invested my whole heart into this relationship and I have never met anyone who makes me feel happier. But I feel so conflicted and I wonder if we will run into trouble ten years down the line. You need to sort this out with him. You must tell him that you have a dilemma and that you so want to be with him because you love him and right now you trust him also. That he must agree to help you to raise the children as you know to be right. You won't force them but intend to present them with the truth. Remember that our Catholic faith is based on Faith and Reason. That should persuade your boyfriend that your approach will be reasonable and scientific although Faith is a mystery.

I wonder if anyone could offer me some advice or anecdotal stories or just anything really. Much appreciated, A

My husband converted after over 30 years of marriage and is a faithful, committed Catholic who is a daily communicant. That could happen to your husband also. I never insisted, never tried to persuade him. I prayed. He read different books from me - his were scientific.

[Cinette]

Originally Posted by flick26

My boyfriend's father is in fact a devout Christian (not Catholic though and he never raised his children in the religion, so he was not even baptised) and his family effectively disowned him for marrying an atheist as my boyfriend's mother is an atheist. But I suppose in this case, he just followed his mother's path.

I'm not sure I agree with your point in bold. To be truthful, religion only came into my life when I was nine years old. As untraditional as it sounds (and I am a little embarrassed), religion only played a major part in my life from the age of 10 and from there I developed my own faith. I had no real input from my parents (who were also Catholic), just a few mentions of God and the Bible. No one except the church and my sunday classes created a spiritual environment for me.
By the age of 15, my faith was undoubtedly stronger than the vast majority of my peers at my Catholic high school who had been brought up from a young age in Catholicism. These kids didn't attend church outside or inside of school, they were never interested in our Bible studies, they just went along with what their parents had told them. They are just Catholic by name and that was something that really annoyed me and still does to this day. Maybe it was because we were teens but heir religion had no significance in their life. But I was also a teen and religion was a vital component of myself.

I really don't want my children to end up like this. So, I figured by teaching them about Catholicism (why would I tear down my own faith?!) but not forcing them to do whatever I say without understanding what they are doing and why, I would raise children who turned out like myself. But I am only in my early twenties and children will not be coming until a decade or so. In time, I will probably figure out the best method to ensure my children don't live as "Catholics" by name. I would rather my children be true, believing Catholics or don't be one at all.

I forgot to mention in my first post that although my ex-atheist husband is now a committed, daily communicant, our children are not even Christian (one out of four is) and my youngest who is a mother herself has never been baptised. So you see the risk? In my case it was my fault. Had I raised my children Catholic my husband may not have objected although I cannot be sure. You sound like a serious Catholic and I am sure you will pray for the courage to make the right decision.

[Cinette]

Originally Posted by flick26

My boyfriend's father is in fact a devout Christian (not Catholic though and he never raised his children in the religion, so he was not even baptised) and his family effectively disowned him for marrying an atheist as my boyfriend's mother is an atheist. But I suppose in this case, he just followed his mother's path.

........................................ .....

I really don't want my children to end up like this. So, I figured by teaching them about Catholicism (why would I tear down my own faith?!) but not forcing them to do whatever I say without understanding what they are doing and why, I would raise children who turned out like myself. But I am only in my early twenties and children will not be coming until a decade or so. In time, I will probably figure out the best method to ensure my children don't live as "Catholics" by name. I would rather my children be true, believing Catholics or don't be one at all.

Apologetics, Apologetics - get Patrick Madrid's books - they are wonderful. Get Stephen Ray's books Crossing the Tiber and Upon this Rock. They are interesting and helpful.

[Cinette]

Originally Posted by 1ke

The Bishop doesn't call you personally, by calling on the phone or sending a letter. The "call" of the bishop is through the Church. Therefore it is through the priest and the religious education program-- they prepare you for confirmation and then the Bishop determines when/where Confirmation takes place for the youth of the parish.

If your parents did not have your enrolled in religious education then perhaps that is why you were not confirmed with the others at the appropriate time and instead had to attend a class for adults or had to ask about it.

That aside, I am glad you received Confirmation and the graces that flow from it.

Well, their sacraments of initiation remain incomplete and they do not receive the graces Christ intends for them. From a canon law perspective, one is to be confirmed before marriage or ordination, so they may find themselves in need of confirmation class and Confirmation before receiving either of those sacraments. Spiritually, they have not received the gifts of the Holy Spirit sacramentally and the graces that come with the Sacrament.

They remain a Catholic, albeit one who is in an objective state of grave sin. Of course, we cannot judge whether or not they are actually in a state of mortal sin because we don't know the state of their souls and their culpability in their decision to leave the Church (i.e. out of ignorance, or willfully with full knowledge, etc). We do know they place their souls in jeopardy and cut themselves off from the sacramental grace of Christ. We pray for them to return, and God awaits their return.

No, baptism changes us permanently. It removes original sin, washes away any actual sin, regenerates our soul, and incorporates us into the Body of Christ, the Church. It is an indelible mark on our souls and cannot be repeated nor can it be "undone". The same is true for Confirmation-- it too imparts a character on the soul and cannot be repeated.

I hope you do not think I am making light of your age. I am not. My own ordeal with the atheist boyfriend was very painful and when that relationship ended I mourned it for a long time. It was very hard. It seemed like my world was upside down. It hurt deeply. I didn't date again for three years.

But, the old adage time heals all wounds is true. From my vantage point it all seems so long ago, and so silly now. Of course it wasn't silly at the time, but I gotta tell you that a few years and some distance and perspective really makes you go, "what on Earth was I thinking????"

Not a sin, per se.

The Church discourages marriages between Catholics and the unbaptized-- particularly someone who is athesit and hostile to the faith. Paul writes about unequally yoked individuals and warns Christian widows against remarrying unbelievers.

So, no it isn't a sin, but it is terribly imprudent. God gives us the help of the Holy Spirit to grow in virtue. The cardinal virtues are prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance.

Prudence would tell us that entering into an intimate relationship with a person who rejects God and his Church is not prudent.

Your post is excellent! Excellent! My circumstances were different from yours and I do believe God was watching over me all the way. I had an uncle who was a priest and believe he must have prayed for us all every day!

[1ke]

Originally Posted by VeritasLuxMea

I thought you could leave the Faith without being "jumped out," so to speak.

I don't know what you mean by that.

Originally Posted by VeritasLuxMea

Can one not undo baptism by renouncing their baptism in words and formally expressing their rejection of the Holy Spirit and all of its works?

No, one cannot undo baptism by any means.

[1ke]

Originally Posted by flick26

We have discussed contraception (I know the Catholic teaching says be open to life but I really don't want more than two children)

Sigh.

Sounds like you need more formation in the Catholic faith yourself.

Originally Posted by VeritasLuxMea

but it was actually him who warned me that the marriage would not be sacramental and not valid in the eyes of Catholicism and God(?).

This is not correct.

He is confusing sacramentality with validity. They are two separate things.

A Catholic can validly marry a non-Catholic who is unbaptized if they receive a dispensation from disparity of cult from their Bishop and follow the Catholic laws on marriage.

Sacramentality flows from baptism, so if one or both parties are unbaptized their marriage is termed a natural marriage. It would become a sacrament immediately if the unbaptized party were ever to be baptized.

[Bklynguy]

Originally Posted by 1ke

I don't know what you mean by that.

I think Veritas is saying that one can still choose to leave the Faith even though they have received the Sacraments of Initiation. Someone can definitely walk away from the Church and choose not to believe in its dogmas and practice its teachings and customs. However, this doesn't change the fact that those who are baptized Catholic are, as you said before, Catholic forever and that no act of man can undo that fact.

[PaulGH]

In reply to the original post:

I can't say that one choice or the other is definitely right for you. However, if you do marry this man, you and your children will constantly have to deal with this serious conflict between your faith and his lack of faith. And that conflict is likely to seem worse later than it does now, because now you are in the "young and in love" stage, which can make it easy to overlook potential faults or conflicts.

For example, imagine that it is ten years from now. The two of you are married, and you have two children. For whatever reason, you are not ready for another child, and you decide to use periodic abstinence (natural family planning) to avoid pregnancy. Is he truly going to be OK with this? Or is he going to insist on using contraception (which is gravely sinful), or is he maybe going to ask you to do things for him during the abstinence time that the Catholic Church teaches are gravely sinful?

Or consider another scenario ten years from now: The two of you are married, and you have discerned that God is calling you to be open to life. Your husband has reluctantly agreed to having a third child, but he draws the line at having any more beyond that, because he thinks that another child would be too difficult, too expensive, etc., and because he doesn't see the blessing of children from a Catholic perspective. This may not seem like a big deal to you now, since you said that you only want two children, but this is something that could be heartbreaking if you change your mind later.

I understand what it is like to be young and in love, but as someone else already said, the old cliche of "time heals all wounds" really is true. I can't help thinking that there may be a 22-year-old Catholic man out there somewhere who is looking for a good Catholic woman to marry, and that maybe you are meant to build a marriage and family with him instead.

Having said that, there are some Catholic/atheist marriages that work. But I have also heard stories of heartache, heartbreak, and seemingly unresolvable conflicts in Catholic/atheist marriages.

I think the bottom line is this: How important is it to you that your kids have a father who will be a shining example of the Catholic faith to them, rather than someone who is only barely willing to allow them to receive the sacraments?

[PaulGH]

One more thing. I was re-reading your original post, and I really think that you know the right answer already:

Originally Posted by flick26

Of course, it would be more ideal if I married a Catholic man but I have fallen in love with my boyfriend and there is no one else that I could ever imagine spending my life with. . . .
But here is the problem, our views on religion and science (e.g. the purpose of evolution) are so different and we always agree to disagree. But is this how I want my children to be raised? In a household where mom and dad can't even agree on this huge topic? Mom believes in God but dad doesn't really and doesn't like religion? I want my children to grow up in a solid household with firm beliefs. If we are married, who will I turn to for spiritual advice?

I think this quote shows that you know what you should do, but that you don't want to do it because it would be so difficult to end the relationship with your boyfriend. I completely understand that difficulty. All I can say is, remember that sometimes it is very difficult to do the right thing, especially when you are not completely sure that it is the right thing. But I think you have to weigh what you are feeling today against what is best for you and your potential children over the next several decades and beyond.

[TheRealJuliane]

Originally Posted by VeritasLuxMea

I don't get it. If we're analyzing all faiths on equal ground, would not Catholicism stand out? So why the worries?

What do you mean by "creating" a faith?

What is it about being an "adult" that makes Catholicism "really hard"? Plenty of adults convert to the Church.

Since our God has gifted us with free will, why insist so firmly on visiting the choice of parents upon the children with regards to something like this?

I don't know about you, but I'm not particularly fond of the other religions doing this, so I can't let my own off the hook, either.

You and I are on different tracks. I seem to have to explain my thinking to you on nearly every thread we both reply on.

I'll give you an analogy that I think fits fairly well.

Imagine a couple, one from France, one from Spain. They both speak each other's language so there is no problem with communication between the two of them. They have a baby. They can't decide what language to teach the baby so they leave the baby to grow up and decide for himself what language he wants to speak. In order not to overtly influence him, they avoid speaking to him directly. He grows up not being able to speak at all. He has no basis for a language in his life.

Actually, the analogy is incomplete, because in these situations, the atheist parent usually tears down the entire CONCEPT of faith in any form of deity. That is difficult to fight - not only is the parents' influence in a child's life VERY powerful, but once the "window" is closed, it's hard to open again.

I am not doubting God's ability to work miracles. But go talk to people whose parents "let them decide," and see how difficult it is.

[TheRealJuliane]

Originally Posted by PaulGH

I think the bottom line is this: How important is it to you that your kids have a father who will be a shining example of the Catholic faith to them, rather than someone who is only barely willing to allow them to receive the sacraments?

Yes, that IS the bottom line. And what you choose will affect not just your children, but THEIR children, and THEIR children, etc. My husband loves our sons, as much as he can, but as far as spiritual influence in their lives, he's been able to give them NOTHING at all. I mean, NOTHING. How can he, when he doesn't believe? He fakes it, at least he understands that they do need faith in their lives and hasn't torn down what I have tried to build. But I am a revert also, and there are a lot of gaps in my own Catholic knowledge. I have only been a weak teacher of the Faith. Unless you have a ton of very faithful Catholic men and women surrounding you, at all phases of the childrens' lives, their father or mother (atheist) is going to have more influence. Even WITH the support, that parents' beliefs and opinions are hard to combat.

My husband has stayed mostly silent on matters of faith. No prayers with the boys, ever. No wise counsel. No working in the parish. A big void. The boys are to the point where they notice that Dad doesn't go to confession, ever. That he does miss Mass sometimes, for no good reason. That even on our holiest day, Mass is viewed as "something to get over with as quickly as possible." I expect that our younger son will ask questions at some point before long. Well, there's not much I can say, except, "You will need to talk to your father about that."



I also worry deeply about his soul - when he stands and says the Creed, isn't that a lie? When he receives the Eucharist, in a state of unbelief, doesn't he damn himself to Hell? I pray for him, but I'm sure my prayers aren't enough.

[Cinette]

Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane

Yes, that IS the bottom line. And what you choose will affect not just your children, but THEIR children, and THEIR children, etc. My husband loves our sons, as much as he can, but as far as spiritual influence in their lives, he's been able to give them NOTHING at all. I mean, NOTHING. How can he, when he doesn't believe? He fakes it, at least he understands that they do need faith in their lives and hasn't torn down what I have tried to build. But I am a revert also, and there are a lot of gaps in my own Catholic knowledge. I have only been a weak teacher of the Faith. Unless you have a ton of very faithful Catholic men and women surrounding you, at all phases of the childrens' lives, their father or mother (atheist) is going to have more influence. Even WITH the support, that parents' beliefs and opinions are hard to combat.

My husband has stayed mostly silent on matters of faith. No prayers with the boys, ever. No wise counsel. No working in the parish. A big void. The boys are to the point where they notice that Dad doesn't go to confession, ever. That he does miss Mass sometimes, for no good reason. That even on our holiest day, Mass is viewed as "something to get over with as quickly as possible." I expect that our younger son will ask questions at some point before long. Well, there's not much I can say, except, "You will need to talk to your father about that."



I also worry deeply about his soul - when he stands and says the Creed, isn't that a lie? When he receives the Eucharist, in a state of unbelief, doesn't he damn himself to Hell? I pray for him, but I'm sure my prayers aren't enough.

This is truly heartbreaking. Having read the other posts and especially this one I do think the OP should think deeply and pray extensively and carefully consider what she will do. My husband became a Catholic but my four children aren't and I suffer!! My grandchildren are in another world! I pray and pray and pray and pray....... I am having Masses said every month for them. I am hounding heaven. I baptised my grandchildren on the quiet. I really suffer.

Cinette