Knanaya Catholics and Endogamy - Page 2

Vico · #16 May 2, '12, 7:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DhuAlQarnayn

It is not permitted, however, to have a sui juris church that is closed to outsiders. All the churches are to have equal rights and responsibilities for evangelizing the world, and none may engage in any type of racial or ethnic discrimination. This is likely why the Vatican has resisted giving the Knanaya archdiocese more autonomy.

I see, so the Vatican would likely not approve of endogamy then if they had their own sui iuris Church. The Holy See always approves or disapproves any canon laws for the sui iuris Churches.

fijiq48 · #17 May 3, '12, 2:09 pm

But the Knanaya are not discriminating anyone racially or ethnically. We love all of our Christian neighbors. The reason we are endogamist is to preserve our ancient Jewish customs not to show some sort of supremacy . When the Knanayas arrived in Kerala in 345 A.D it is said that they were very early Christians who still had many Jewish customs, the most important being endogamy and other wedding customs. Our forefathers have preserved endogamy and the traditions of the Knanaya Church for 1700 years, why would we break that line?

Our history tells us that we came to India for either one of two reasons. One being persecution of Christians under the Romans and so we fled from Syria to Kerala and the other reason being Uraha Mar Yosef the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch, 72 families, preists, deacons, and there leader Knai Thoma(A prominent merchant who did trade between Kerala and Syira) , were sent on a misson to strengthen the failing ancient church of Mar Thoma in India. This is the reason why many believe, the Mar Thoma Christians use Syriac Orthodox Liturgy. So really after Mar Thoma, The Knanayas were the other missionaries of India then after them there was of course European missionary work.

**JharekCarnelian** · #18 May 3, '12, 2:28 pm

I find it it disturbing that any section of the Church should insist on rules whereby other Catholics cannot marry members of that section. I have heard of this issue before in relationship to this group and endogamy strikes me as strictly at odds with the Catholic faith. We are all one in Christ ultimately as Catholics. Valuing traditions is one thing endogamy is another thing altogether.

Vico · #19 May 3, '12, 5:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fijiq48

But the Knanaya are not discriminating anyone racially or ethnically. We love all of our Christian neighbors. The reason we are endogamist is to preserve our ancient Jewish customs not to show some sort of supremacy . When the Knanayas arrived in Kerala in 345 A.D it is said that they were very early Christians who still had many Jewish customs, the most important being endogamy and other wedding customs. Our forefathers have preserved endogamy and the traditions of the Knanaya Church for 1700 years, why would we break that line?

...

Once it was required to be Catholic to marry another Catholic, and it is still the norm, but permission or dispensation may be obtained for other Christian or non-Christian marriages. I suppose that is a kind of endogamy. The Catholic canon law does, as a norm, allow interecclesial marriage between Catholics of any of the 23 sui iuris Churches. Also there can be no conditions in the eastern Catholic churches:

CCEO Canon 826
Marriage based on a condition cannot be validly celebrated.

fijiq48 · #20 May 3, '12, 8:21 pm

Well im not arguing with ya, but our priests did research on the topic of "Sui Juris" and they said we have a very good chance of becoming a Sui Juris Church. We have as much right to that as the Syro Malabar Church does.

Knanaya's are the ones that brought the bible and the Syriac Liturgies to Kerala, as it was in the past we should restore the actual Knanaya Church not the single diocese for more than 100,000 people that the Syro Malabar church has given us...

yawsep1569 · #21 May 5, '12, 6:38 pm

I wish you were right DhuAlQarnayn, but it does not appear to be the case. I am somewhat shocked by the outrageous claims made by fijiq48. You make a very serious accusation about the case of Mar Makil. I would be very grateful if you could provide some evidence or credible source that he was removed from his position because he was Knanaya. From my humble knowledge, I only thought he was transferred because he wanted to have his own diocese for Knanaya people. Furthermore, your words about Mar Angadiath are scandalous. He has done nothing but try to support everyone in his diocese, though many paint him as a villain. He is one of the most humble men I know. He has allowed numerous Knanaya parishes to be established and staffed by Knanaya priests. They only answer to him indirectly because he has placed them under a Knanaya Vicar-General. This is much more than I think is appropriate. If he has demanded that endogamy end, then good for him! There is not a single shred of evidence to show that the current Knanaya are the descendants of Knai Thomman. And what is this historic Knanaya church you speak of? There has never been any such thing recorded in history! All Christians who were east of the Roman Empire belonged to the Church of the East, the Patriarchate based in current-day Iraq. The Syriac Orthodox bishop has nothing to do with India. If you say you are descended from members of that church, please stop calling yourself St. Thomas Christians. That is a complete contradiction. Mar Thoma Christians have nothing to do with Knanaya. They broke away from the Orthodox Church, who were formed when they refused to stay under Rome. This is basic history. If you would like to continue endogamy, I sincerely hope the Catholic Church will not subsidize it because it is completely against fundamental Christian beliefs.

DhuAlQarnayn · #22 May 5, '12, 10:36 pm

The Knanaya have their own particular customs and traditions, so it is only proper that these should be respected, insofar as possible, by the church. And this is what has happened -- they have their own archdiocese, including mission houses around the world, which operates independently, and their priests and bishops minister to their own community. They have remained a part of the Syro-Malabar Church up until now primarily in order to ensure that their unusually pronounced nativist tendencies do not come into conflict with the basic doctrine of the faith. A few of the leaders, and more than a few of the parishioners, are unhappy with this arrangement and want complete freedom to determine what goes on in their churches and who can be a member, regardless of what Catholicism actually teaches. This is by no means a universally held position in the community, and it is a demand that I suspect is very unlikely to be granted. If the Vatican had a clear assurance from the bishops that a Knanaya sui juris church would faithfully uphold all the canon law which the 23 other churches accept, then one may well be created, but at the moment the people seeking more independence are the very people within the community whom the Vatican trusts least to adhere to this.

I don't know enough about the specific situation within the Syro-Malabar Church to comment on the allegations against various individuals made in this thread, but I will say that, while the issue is so highly politicized and divisive, the Vatican is extraordinarily unlikely to make any major changes in the structure of the church, regardless of the merits of the case. If any change is to come, it will only happen after the infighting has died down and the community to be affected has reached consensus among its own members.

fijiq48 · #23 May 6, '12, 10:45 am

To DhuAl, I completely agree with what you said DhuAl, except for the fact that a few members want change, KCC(representative congress for Knanayas in Kerala) and KCCNA(representative congress for Knanayas in North America) have agreed that we would like change. Like what i stated before all we really want is more diocese in other parts of the world so our bishops can govern our people and so problems like what is happening with Mar Angadiath in Chicago wont happen.

Our other alternative to this is like I've stated, full autonomy in the creation of a Sui Juris. Even Arch Bishop Mar Moolakattu and our other bishops have agreed on this. Arch Bishop Moolakttu has even recommended non cooperation with the St.Thomas Diocese of Chicago (Syro Malabar).

To Yawsep, I'm sorry but i cannot provide evidence on the case of Mar Makil because i heard this information on a speech given by KCC officials. And to the allegations to Mar Angadiath i can give you a good example. The Knanaya Mission in Houston had been planning to build or buy a church during the summer of 2011. All was going well and members of the community had agreed on building a church and had invested more than $500,000 in the plot and construction of the church. The construction committee had informed us that building this church would take at least 9 months or more than a year. When Mar Angadiath found out about this he told the community in Houston to bring up a church in three months and that if we didn't we would have to cancel masses in our mission hall.....Why!?!?!?? Why would Mar Angadiath say this?? Eventually the community in Houston had to buy a church within those three months and community members lost more than $300,000. Angadiaths reasoning for this was that the community had been holding masses in a hall not a church and this was not correct. Angadiath had known that the mission in Houston had been using this hall for more than 14 years.... Why would he have such a problem right at the time when we decided to buy a church..??

Vico · #24 May 6, '12, 1:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fijiq48

...Why would he have such a problem right at the time when we decided to buy a church..??

How can you judge him without knowing the answer to this question?

Vico · #25 May 6, '12, 7:57 pm

I suspect that if the Syro-Malabar sui iuris Church was split to create the Knanaya sui iuris Church, that it would no be subject directly to the Holy See. Maybe Kottayam would be the Metropolitan or it may be changed to a non-metropolitan church. Then in other countries any Knanaya parishes would be in the care of another church sui iuris, or an exarchate created there, depending upon the number of Knanaya faithful and available bishops.

Syro-Malabar:

Ernakulam–Angamaly (Major Archeparchy 1992)
Changanacherry / Changanassery (Metropolitan Archeparchy 1956)
Tellicherry / Thalassery (Metropolitan Archeparchy 1995)
Trichur / Thrissur (Metropolitan Archeparchy 1995)
Kottayam (Metropolitan Archeparchy 2005) *
25 other Eparchies

fijiq48 · #26 May 6, '12, 8:33 pm

When the Houston Knanayas asked why Mar Angadiath never gave a clear answer except for that its not right to celebrate quarbana in a hall.

Yea, I believe if we petition for a Sui Juris, we'll receive a Metropolitanate not a Major Archeparchy. But that would be appropriate because we only have one diocese and 4 bishops.

Vico · #27 May 6, '12, 8:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fijiq48

When the Houston Knanayas asked why Mar Angadiath never gave a clear answer except for that its not right to celebrate quarbana in a hall.

Yea, I believe if we petition for a Sui Juris, we'll receive a Metropolitanate not a Major Archeparchy. But that would be appropriate because we only have one diocese and 4 bishops.

I think if there is only one eparchy in a church sui iuris then it is an eparchal church rather than a metropolitan church, because a metropolitan church has a synod of bishops each a proper presbyter of ther own eparchy.

Also, when I posted the word no appeared by mistake when editing, it should read:
"I suspect that if the Syro-Malabar sui iuris Church was split to create the Knanaya sui iuris Church, that it would be subject directly to the Holy See."

fijiq48 · #28 May 7, '12, 8:33 pm

Anyway like i said before , i just hope that we receive a Metropolitanate or like you said an autonomous eparchy sui juris.

Oh and if anyone was wondering about and liturgical differences between Knanaya Catholics and Syro Malabars there are none except for during the wedding quarbana. Knanayas sing the ancient Knanaya Syriac song Barru Mariam(meaning son of Mary) and have other customs during the wedding quarbana.

Barru Mariam-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPs9I...eature=related

SyroMalankara · #29 May 7, '12, 9:18 pm

The entire issue is being oversimplified here by those who claim to be in the know.

1) (I'm not disputing that this is their version of history, but I'm not sure of it's accuracy) If Knanaya are and have been strictly endogomous, why do they genetically match the other "St Thomas Christian Syrian Christians of Kerala"?

2) If there are unique customs that Knanaya have, where did they come from? They say from the Jews, yet most of the customs are similar to other St. Thomas Syrian Christians (who's customs are also a mix of Jewish and Hindu), or are not found in any Jewish sources, nor are they found in Chaldean/Assyrian sources - where Knai Thomas is said to have come.

3) If Knanaya Catholics are as they claim, why should they be separate from both Syro-Malabar/Syro-Malankara and have their own eparchy under Rome? Why not directly under the Chaldean Catholicos-Patriarch?

4) The majority of Knanaya Catholics celebrate the Syro-Malabar Rites exactly, and there are a minority of Knanaya Catholics of the Syro-Malankara Tradition. These minority correspond exactly to the Traditions of the Knanaya Syriac Orthodox. -- which version of history do the Catholic Knanaya in N. America hold? Did Knai Thoma & company go to India with the permission of the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch, or did he go with permission of the Chaldean/Assyrian Catholicos-Patriarch?

5) Do any of the "differences" between Knanaya Catholics / Orthodox rites and non-Knanaya Catholics/Orthodox rites have to do with cultural/social items or are their any differences in the Ecclesial realm?

More when these are answered. Thanks.

fijiq48 · #30 May 7, '12, 9:45 pm

To Syro Malankara
1.Some Knanayas say strict endogamy only came around in 1911 or when our diocese was erected and others claim 1700 years of endogamy. This is a highly disputed topic which no one can argue, because there is no real answer.

2. Well i don't know about you but I've never seen any other St.Thomas Christians have traditions such as- Kaipidutham, Mylanchi Ideel, Chandam Charthu, Ichappad Kodukkal, Nada Vili, Nellum Neerum, Vazhu Pidutham, Paallum Pazhavum, Barru Mariam Pattu and others.

3. Shouldnt the Syro Malabar Church be under the Chaldean Patriarch aswell then? Is the Syro Malabar rite not just another form of the Chaldean rite and the Jacobites directly under the Syriac Patriarch ?Throughout history Kerala Christians have faced many changes, so we seperated ourselves from each other into differant groups. Jacobites,Malankara Orthodox, Syro Malabar, Knanaya(Knanayas being already separate), Marthomas, and Syro Malankara. Change happens so we can not always stick to our original ways. Of course it would be great if the Mar Thoma Christians were all one united church but that's not the deal.

4.The Eastern Church (Chaldean), please excuse what i had put in an earlier post.

5. Knanaya Jacobites and Knanaya Catholics have always supported there mother church Knanaya Catholics with the Syro Malabar Church and Knanaya Jacobites with The Syrian Jacobite Church. When the Koonan Kurishu Sathyam occurred the once united Knanayas either joined the Jacobites or the Syro Malabar.