6th vs 9th commandments?

fakename · #1 Apr 8, '12, 8:09 pm

We know that the commandments are listed in order of worst to least sins. But if that's true than things which fall under the 9th commandment (pornography) would be not as bad as something under the 6th commandment (thinking lustfully). But isn't pornography only bad because of covetousness and don't people think lustfully when they covet and vice versa? So then these would be the same sins and so one sin could not be worse than the other, they are virtually the same except one is less mental than the other.

So why is a sin against the 9th commandment (1) different and (2) less immoral than a sin against the 6th commandment?

**Bookcat** · #2 Apr 8, '12, 8:21 pm

Pornography is under the 6th commandment....

It is also the case that those two are often taken together.

Hokomai · #3 Apr 9, '12, 12:53 am

Are they listed in order of severity? Who says?

Michael85 · #4 Apr 9, '12, 2:28 am

If the Commandments were listed in order of severity, that would mean that violating the Sabbath was worse than murder, adultery and stealing.

**1ke** · #5 Apr 9, '12, 5:38 am

Pornography is a sin against the sixth commandment.

The commandments are not in some sort of "worst to least" order. I have no idea where you got that.

fakename · #6 Apr 9, '12, 9:08 am

Quote:

Pornography is a sin against the sixth commandment.

The commandments are not in some sort of "worst to least" order. I have no idea where you got that.

I'll double check but I remember that my examination of conscience says that it is a sin against the 9th.

Anyways, the commandments are in a "worst to least" order since Aquinas said they were:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2100.htm#article6

(searching the link would reveal that Aquinas calls the commandments matters of natural law and ordered according to what is least reasonable first.

And the least reasonable is the worst so it follows that it is ordered according to the worst sins first.)

**1ke** · #7 Apr 9, '12, 11:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by fakename

I'll double check but I remember that my examination of conscience says that it is a sin against the 9th.

Your examination of conscience is not a Magesterial document. The Catechism is. From the Catechism, under the Sixth Commandment section on offenses against chastity:

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fakename

Anyways, the commandments are in a "worst to least" order since Aquinas said they were:

As august as Aquinas is, he is not infallible and "because Aquinas says so" does not make something Church teaching. Aquinas is certainly a brilliant theologian, but again not infallible.

What the Church actually teaches, again from the Catechism:

2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. The two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.

fakename · #8 Apr 9, '12, 10:15 pm

Quote:

As august as Aquinas is, he is not infallible and "because Aquinas says so" does not make something Church teaching. Aquinas is certainly a brilliant theologian, but again not infallible.

What the Church actually teaches, again from the Catechism:

2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. The two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.

Well then I suppose that your interpretation of the 6th commandment is better.

But as for the rest, clearly the commandments are ordered from worst to least: it's intuitively obvious that to do something against God directly is worse than to do something against him indirectly, that is, it is worse to break the first commandment than the 7th.

So the interpretation you have and mine must be logically coherent. How could this be? Well I think that since the commandments are all about the virtues, and since virtues form an organic unity, then yes the commandments are organically united and as a pope once said "there is no prudence that is not also courage, etc.". But it is not at all true that breaking the first commandment is the same as to break the tenth commandment. So the phrase "the commandments" are taken in different senses. So in one sense the commandments are ordered in a hierarchy and in another and I suspect platonic/socratic sense they are all one (for it seems that plato said that all virtue was a type of wisdom while aristotle insisted on separate and essentially different virtues).

Let us observe also that vices and virtues are one by cause (since one virtue causes another) but they are also linked by prudence as organs are linked by the heart. But just because they are so linked doesn't make them consubstantial, equal or capable of being by themselves.

fredms3 · #9 Apr 10, '12, 2:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by fakename

We know that the commandments are listed in order of worst to least sins. But if that's true than things which fall under the 9th commandment (pornography) would be not as bad as something under the 6th commandment (thinking lustfully). But isn't pornography only bad because of covetousness and don't people think lustfully when they covet and vice versa? So then these would be the same sins and so one sin could not be worse than the other, they are virtually the same except one is less mental than the other.

So why is a sin against the 9th commandment (1) different and (2) less immoral than a sin against the 6th commandment?

10 Commandments are not listed in the order of what you say worst to least sins. The Bible even tells us (correct me if i'm wrong) that if we commit one of the ten then commit all of them. I just don't remember the verse, but i'l try to find and post it here.

fakename · #10 Apr 10, '12, 8:29 pm

Quote:

10 Commandments are not listed in the order of what you say worst to least sins. The Bible even tells us (correct me if i'm wrong) that if we commit one of the ten then commit all of them. I just don't remember the verse, but i'l try to find and post it here.

Is it in the Gospel of James?

well one does not commit all the sins literally. Instead one commits all the sins because all sins makes one God's enemy and so by this common denominator , all the sins are committed if one commits only one.

But again the ten commandments are listed in order since the worst vice opposes the best thing. But blasphemy opposes the best thing, and murder opposes our very selves, while adultery opposes our second selves. As we can see, sins are listed in order of the value of the good being corrupted.

thistle · #11 Apr 11, '12, 1:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by fakename

We know that the commandments are listed in order of worst to least sins. But if that's true than things which fall under the 9th commandment (pornography) would be not as bad as something under the 6th commandment (thinking lustfully). But isn't pornography only bad because of covetousness and don't people think lustfully when they covet and vice versa? So then these would be the same sins and so one sin could not be worse than the other, they are virtually the same except one is less mental than the other.

So why is a sin against the 9th commandment (1) different and (2) less immoral than a sin against the 6th commandment?

Am I missing something here? What difference does it make if mortal sins have degrees of badness? Whichever one you commit they ALL mean you are in a state of mortal sin and dying in that state means you go to Hell.

fakename · #12 Apr 11, '12, 8:03 am

Quote:

Am I missing something here? What difference does it make if mortal sins have degrees of badness? Whichever one you commit they ALL mean you are in a state of mortal sin and dying in that state means you go to Hell.

at least one should know what different sins are so as to know how to avoid them and how to confess them well.

Also, one should know which sin is worse so you can be especially weary of avoiding that one.

fakename · #13 Apr 11, '12, 8:03 am

Quote:

Am I missing something here? What difference does it make if mortal sins have degrees of badness? Whichever one you commit they ALL mean you are in a state of mortal sin and dying in that state means you go to Hell.

at least one should know what different sins are so as to know how to avoid them and how to confess them well.

Also, one should know which sin is worse so you can be especially weary of that one.

thistle · #14 Apr 11, '12, 12:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fakename

at least one should know what different sins are so as to know how to avoid them and how to confess them well.

Also, one should know which sin is worse so you can be especially weary of that one.

I don't agree. A mortal sin is a mortal sin regardless of whether one is less bad than others. You should be wary of ALL mortal sins and avoid ALL mortal sins. Even the least bad lands you in Hell if you die unrepentant.
You don't need to know which mortal sin is worse than another to know how to confess it. You simply confess all the mortal sins you have committed. There is not a way to confess particular mortal sins over others.

fakename · #15 Apr 11, '12, 8:29 pm

Quote:

You don't need to know which mortal sin is worse than another to know how to confess it. You simply confess all the mortal sins you have committed. There is not a way to confess particular mortal sins over others.

I'm just saying that if all sins were really the same, then we could just confess any sin since all sins are the same. But if sins are different, then we should know which ones are which and so we must return to the question at hand: how is the 6th different from the 9th? One is worse than the other (I'm thinking) and so maybe that's the difference, or maybe there's some other difference too.