Who exactly was crucified?

[Wretched one]

I think Jesus was composed of The Son of God, who arose from his bosom, Michael the archangel and David’s descendent, the human. What do you think? Do you think that only the human was crucified and not the rest and that is why Jesus said on the cross, “why Father have you abandoned me?”

[Dorothy]

Originally Posted by Wretched one

I think Jesus was composed of The Son of God, who arose from his bosom, Michael the archangel and David’s descendent, the human. What do you think? Do you think that only the human was crucified and not the rest and that is why Jesus said on the cross, “why Father have you abandoned me?”

The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity (Our Lord Jesus Christ) felt the abandonment of the Father as part of His Passion that he suffered for us. It was the Father's will that Jesus suffered that.....for our sake.

The Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity always existed. The Incarnation of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity took place in time,......Jesus now has two natures; He is 100% Divine, and 100% human - and He is One Person, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, God! His Divinity did not leave Him when he was on the cross.

[raaucoin]

Read the entire Psalm 22. You'll see that Jesus was quoting scripture and that in a way was proclaiming his "victory song".

[Heuchler]

hmm. Well Jesus Christ is composed of two natures one is the human which He received from Mary and the other is divine which came from being begotten of God. However, both are eternal and there was never a time in which the Father existed and Christ did not. St. Michael the archangel was never a part of Christ and is only an angel.

Christ was crucified. The gnostics thought that Christ was never crucified because he was only God and that the divine can't be crucified, he only appeared to die on a cross. The agnostics, atheists, and other non-believers would say that only a human died on the cross and that Christ never rose nor was he ever God. Catholicism states that Jesus Christ, God and Man, died that day.

Christ did cry out that day "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?" It is a scary thing. Through our actions, God felt that God had abandoned him. God doubted in God. This is the misery that was put onto Jesus. Christ as God and man both felt this. There was no duplicate Jesus standing off to the side. Our God doubted that day and our God died.

[LilyM]

Originally Posted by Wretched one

I think Jesus was composed of The Son of God, who arose from his bosom, Michael the archangel and David’s descendent, the human. What do you think? Do you think that only the human was crucified and not the rest and that is why Jesus said on the cross, “why Father have you abandoned me?”

Michael the Archangel was an angel, a created being like all the other angels. Jesus was not a created being, as we proclaim in our Creed each week - 'begotten not made'.

Otherwise, in that Jesus had both a divine and human nature (which human nature was indeed of David's lineage) you are pretty much correct - however the two are inextricably linked in the one person, so it is not really accurate to think of them as separate. In the same way it is not accurate to speak of me as a daughter as somehow a different Lily from me as an aunt.

[meltzerboy]

Originally Posted by Heuchler

hmm. Well Jesus Christ is composed of two natures one is the human which He received from Mary and the other is divine which came from being begotten of God. However, both are eternal and there was never a time in which the Father existed and Christ did not. St. Michael the archangel was never a part of Christ and is only an angel.

Christ was crucified. The gnostics thought that Christ was never crucified because he was only God and that the divine can't be crucified, he only appeared to die on a cross. The agnostics, atheists, and other non-believers would say that only a human died on the cross and that Christ never rose nor was he ever God. Catholicism states that Jesus Christ, God and Man, died that day.

Christ did cry out that day "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?" It is a scary thing. Through our actions, God felt that God had abandoned him. God doubted in God. This is the misery that was put onto Jesus. Christ as God and man both felt this. There was no duplicate Jesus standing off to the side. Our God doubted that day and our God died.

What is the sense of the statements that "G-d felt that G-d abandoned Him" and "G-d doubted in G-d"? Do they mean that the Second Person of G-d (the Son) felt abandoned by the First Person of God (the Father), even though they are Persons of the same G-d? Is this feeling of abandonment and doubt consistent with the nature of G-d? Or is it the human Jesus who felt the suffering, experienced death, and was resurrected, while the Jesus Who is G-d the Son, at one with His Father, did not and could not suffer, die, and be resurrected? I think, however, this is the rejected gnostic view.

[LilyM]

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

What is the sense of the statements that "G-d felt that G-d abandoned Him" and "G-d doubted in G-d"? Do they mean that the Second Person of G-d (the Son) felt abandoned by the First Person of God (the Father), even though they are Persons of the same G-d? Is this feeling of abandonment and doubt consistent with the nature of G-d? Or is it the human Jesus who felt the suffering, experienced death, and was resurrected, while the Jesus Who is G-d the Son, at one with His Father, did not and could not suffer, die, and be resurrected. I think, however, this is the rejected gnostic view.

The second view is the more correct one, although somewhat gnostic. Jesus and the second person of the Trinity are one and the same divine person, but that one chose to take on humanity. That includes human experiences like the sensation of distance from God that suffering and sin bring.

Think of it a bit like the sighted person who chooses for a time to wear a blindfold somas to experience what it is like to be blind, or who chooses to sleep in the street for a time
to experience what homelessness is like.

[meltzerboy]

Originally Posted by LilyM

Michael the Archangel was an angel, a created being like all the other angels. Jesus was not a created being, as we proclaim in our Creed each week - 'begotten not made'.

Otherwise, in that Jesus had both a divine and human nature (which human nature was indeed of David's lineage) you are pretty much correct - however the two are inextricably linked in the one person, so it is not really accurate to think of them as separate. In the same way it is not accurate to speak of me as a daughter as somehow a different Lily from me as an aunt.

According to Catholicism (and Christianity in general), I believe the two natures of Jesus are not separate but they are distinct Persons in terms of their functions, as you, Lily, have different functions as a daughter and as an aunt. Is that correct? So the function of Jesus, G-d the Son, was to redeem humanity as its Lord and Savior. Did G-d the Father therefore divest Himself of His divinity to become the suffering servant, the human Jesus, but not entirely, because He still remained G-d the Son?

[LilyM]

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

According to Catholicism (and Christianity in general), I believe the two natures of Jesus are not separate but they are distinct Persons in terms of their functions, as you, Lily, have different functions as a daughter and as an aunt. Is that correct? So the function of Jesus, G-d the Son, was to redeem humanity as its Lord and Savior. Did G-d the Father therefore divest Himself of His divinity to become the suffering servant, the human Jesus, but not entirely, because He still remained G-d the Son?

No. When we refer to persons in the Trinity we refer to God the Father (the first person), God the Son (the second person - Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit (the third person).

Jesus, the second person, is one and the same person as God the Son. One person who is at one and the same time both human and divine.

The different functions He may have in terms of His humanity and His divinity, or the fact that He is both human and divine, do not signify that He is somehow two distinct persons.

I am not turned into two distinct persons by the fact that I have somewhat different roles as daughter and aunt. I am always one and the same person, no matter what role or function I might be fulfilling. Those roles are just parts of me, the one person.

[Corki]

Originally Posted by Wretched one

I think Jesus was composed of The Son of God, who arose from his bosom, Michael the archangel and David’s descendent, the human. What do you think? Do you think that only the human was crucified and not the rest and that is why Jesus said on the cross, “why Father have you abandoned me?”

How is the Archangel Michael part of this equation?

[thistle]

Originally Posted by Corki

How is the Archangel Michael part of this equation?

Beats me as well. Archangel Michael should not even be in this discussion.

[Heuchler]

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

What is the sense of the statements that "G-d felt that G-d abandoned Him" and "G-d doubted in G-d"? Do they mean that the Second Person of G-d (the Son) felt abandoned by the First Person of God (the Father), even though they are Persons of the same G-d? Is this feeling of abandonment and doubt consistent with the nature of G-d? Or is it the human Jesus who felt the suffering, experienced death, and was resurrected, while the Jesus Who is G-d the Son, at one with His Father, did not and could not suffer, die, and be resurrected? I think, however, this is the rejected gnostic view.

I wouldn't agree with your last view because, as you said, it is gnostic. Jesus Christ who was God did suffer. Now it was probably only because of the humanity within him that he proclaimed that but in doing so, that means that the divine must have agreed. To look at it from our view, our souls do not feel pain, but our bodies can. Our bodies then influence us and lead us to cry out in a similar fashion.

That is why Christ is amazing to us. God ate, God ran, God rested, God was tempted, God was scourged, God died, and God rose again. Before God knew all there was to know about us. Now God has experienced it all. This is the true miracle; all others pale in comparison.

However, (back to the topic of Christ doubting on the cross) a lot of this is speculation as the Catholic church hasn't really had any teachings in detail on this particular subject (that I know of).

[patrick457]

Originally Posted by Corki

How is the Archangel Michael part of this equation?

I guess because it is common in a few circles to identify Jesus with the archangel Michael. The most famous present example of people who hold this belief is the Jehovah's Witnesses, though Seventh-day Adventists and some early Protestants are also known to have held this view.

[Wretched one]

Originally Posted by Corki

How is the Archangel Michael part of this equation?

I must have got it from somewhere I am not sure, but let me focus your attention to another point: How can Jesus the son of God be defeated by Satan and crucified? He is omnipotent. He should single hadedly defeat any number of demons? Or is it he knowingly and willingly allowed satan to crucify him?

[Corki]

Originally Posted by Wretched one

I must have got it from somewhere I am not sure, but let me focus your attention to another point: How can Jesus the son of God be defeated by Satan and crucified? He is omnipotent. He should single hadedly defeat any number of demons? Or is it he knowingly and willingly allowed satan to crucify him?

Satan did not crucify Christ. Men did. As is clear in Scripture, if God had not freely offered His Son as a sacrifice for our sins, no power on earth could have killed him.