Who exactly was crucified? - Page 3

meltzerboy · #31 Apr 11, '12, 12:25 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcrichton

...can you expand on this... since we have several passages in the Old Testament where God acutally takes on the human likeness and engages people (Abraham and Sarah; Abraham alone; Jacob)?

Maran atha!

Angel

This never happens in the Hebrew Bible according to Jewish interpretation. Angels, but not G-d in the flesh.

jcrichton · #32 Apr 11, '12, 12:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

Is it really true that nothing is impossible to G-d? I thought that G-d cannot be or act contrary to His own nature.

I do not see where God has acted contrarty to His own nature... God existed as three from the very Beginning and in Christ He selected/Saved the world at that very Beginning... is His Way different than our human intellect can understand or accept? Yes! Does that mean that somehow God has embarked upon a contradictory path? No! ...it only means that we do not have all the pieces or have not been able to put them together right!

Maran atha!

Angel

jcrichton · #33 Apr 11, '12, 12:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

This never happens in the Hebrew Bible according to Jewish interpretation. Angels, but not G-d in the flesh.

...granted... interpretation makes for great margin of diversion... even when the text is taken appart miticulously... there's always the problem of preconceived/biased mindset... there are usually no winners... and the argument could last longer than a solar storm...

Maran atha!

Angel

meltzerboy · #34 Apr 11, '12, 12:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcrichton

I do not see where God has acted contrarty to His own nature... God existed as three from the very Beginning and in Christ He selected/Saved the world at that very Beginning... is His Way different than our human intellect can understand or accept? Yes! Does that mean that somehow God has embarked upon a contradictory path? No! ...it only means that we do not have all the pieces or have not been able to put them together right!

Maran atha!

Angel

I wasn't referring to the Trinity; I meant G-d cannot be sinful, for example, or subject to error, because these traits would be contrary to His nature.

**LilyM** · #35 Apr 11, '12, 1:21 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

Is it really true that nothing is impossible to G-d? I thought that G-d cannot be or act contrary to His own nature.

God chooses to be and act in a consistent way - perhaps this is too mild a way to put it. He is unchanged and unchanging. Even the 'changes' involved in the creation or the incarnation are not changes on God's part, who has known all of human history from all eternity.

**LilyM** · #36 Apr 11, '12, 1:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

I wasn't referring to the Trinity; I meant G-d cannot be sinful, for example, or subject to error, because these traits would be contrary to His nature.

Jesus also wasn't sinful nor subject to error. But nonetheless fully human. We don't believe sin or error to be innate characteristics of humanity, but due to the deformity of human nature that occurred post the Fall.

mercytruth · #37 Apr 11, '12, 6:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

I wasn't referring to the Trinity; I meant G-d cannot be sinful, for example, or subject to error, because these traits would be contrary to His nature.

You are correct. G-d the Father can not be tempted with sin, nor become sin for us. G-d is holy. As James of the NT says,

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by G-d,” for G-d cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

You are also correct in saying that G-d did not appear to the Patriarchs of the Tanakh.
Jesus, himself said, "No man has seen G-d at any time, the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father he has declared him".

You are correct in saying that angels appeared to the patriarchs in the Torah. We also have instances in the Torah where the early church fathers taught that there were "Christophanies'. That is, appearances of the pre-existent Messiah appearing to the patriarchs.

There is one instance, where the sacred name appeared to Lot, his wife, and two daughters. So, this is considered a definite 'Christophany'.

And Lot said to them, “Oh, no, my lords. Behold, your servant has found favour in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life. But I cannot escape to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me and I die. Behold, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there—is it not a little one?—and my life will be saved!” He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this favour also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. Escape there quickly, for I can do nothing till you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar. Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

Here in Genesis 19:24 the sacred name was on earth with Lot, while the sacred name was in heaven. It appears then, that there are two beings that are called by the sacred name. Because Jesus said that no man has seen G-d at any time, Jesus must be referring to the sacred name who was in heaven, while he as the pre-existent Messiah was on earth with Lot, his wife and two daughters.

Luvtosew · #38 Apr 11, '12, 6:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaucoin

Read the entire Psalm 22. You'll see that Jesus was quoting scripture and that in a way was proclaiming his "victory song".

Yes and the Jews that were there knew what he was referencing..

DCNBILL · #39 Apr 11, '12, 8:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

I wasn't referring to the Trinity; I meant G-d cannot be sinful, for example, or subject to error, because these traits would be contrary to His nature.

This is correct. Logically a thing cannot "be" and "not be" at the same time. God is as God is, the speculation that He could/would choose to be otherwise is simply a human construct that has no actual bearing on the nature of God.

**LilyM** · #40 Apr 11, '12, 3:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luvtosew

Yes and the Jews that were there knew what he was referencing..

So why did they think He was calling on Elijah if they all knew what His words meant?

Uriah_Betrayed · #41 Apr 11, '12, 3:26 pm

This is kinda going far out, but if God died for 3 days does that mean that the universe doesn't need God since it seemed to have not collapsed upon itself while he was out of power?

And by that train of thought, what power brought God back to life if he actually died and not just lost his physical body? I mean I understand why the Church would not say "and then Jesus shed his weak physical body to ascend to heaven." It would make the entire sacrifice seem like nothing more than an act performed by our creator (which admittedly is how I've felt about Christ's crucifixion recently...) but to claim God died is a rather large claim.

Courtney134 · #42 Apr 11, '12, 3:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

I wasn't referring to the Trinity; I meant G-d cannot be sinful, for example, or subject to error, because these traits would be contrary to His nature.

If God could be subject to error, then he wouldn't be God.

mercytruth · #43 Apr 11, '12, 3:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uriah_Betrayed

This is kinda going far out, but if God died for 3 days does that mean that the universe doesn't need God since it seemed to have not collapsed upon itself while he was out of power?

And by that train of thought, what power brought God back to life if he actually died and not just lost his physical body? I mean I understand why the Church would not say "and then Jesus shed his weak physical body to ascend to heaven." It would make the entire sacrifice seem like nothing more than an act performed by our creator (which admittedly is how I've felt about Christ's crucifixion recently...) but to claim God died is a rather large claim.

God the Father did not die, He remains always 'in heaven'. who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:16).

God the Word, the only begotten of the Father died for our sins ... And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. ... (Heb.1:3).

Now when Jesus Christ died for our sins, he suffered and died in his physical body, and possibly suffered and died in his soul. (There is a difference of opinion whether he was abandoned by God the Father in his soul while he was on the cross, and when he descended into sheol.)

Neither his physical body, nor his soul upholds the universe, so the death of Jesus Christ would not bring about the collapse of the universe. Yet it is an interesting question to ponder.

God bless.

bmullins · #44 Apr 11, '12, 4:01 pm

The bible says very clearly that God never said to any of his angels, you are my son. If Jesus is the Son of God, then he is clearly not an angel.

Hebrews 1:5VeritasBible.com

So I believe what the Bible says that Jesus was not only the Son of God, but the Alpha and the Omega (Revelation of John.)

The GreyPilgrim · #45 Apr 11, '12, 4:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heuchler

Christ did cry out that day "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?" It is a scary thing. Through our actions, God felt that God had abandoned him. God doubted in God. This is the misery that was put onto Jesus. Christ as God and man both felt this. There was no duplicate Jesus standing off to the side. Our God doubted that day and our God died.

FYI- Jesus did not "feel" abandoned by God the Father when he said "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me.." He was quoting Psalm 22 in answer to the Priests and those who were mocking Him on the cross. Psalm 22 is a todah, a Psalm of confidence of God's deliverance. By citing the first line Jesus was answering their mockeries. He was proclaiming His confidence in God, not feeling abandoned by God.

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