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  #16  
Old Apr 23, '12, 7:58 pm
Veronica97 Veronica97 is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

CompSciGuy, these are the words of Our Lady of Fatima to the 3 children in August of 1917. "Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and pray for them." I was adopted at birth and when I met my birth family as an adult my birth grandmother told me she had prayed for me my whole life, that I would know Jesus. There is little doubt in my mind that made a very big difference in my life. I am now trying to return the favor by praying for my nieces and nephews ( I don't have grandchildren yet), as well as all of my family members both living and deceased. If more people would pray for others, especially the Rosary, we would see a BIG difference in the world. I don't understand it fully--maybe someone else has some ideas. But as for Anton Lavey, who knows? Maybe in the moments/hours before his death, he saw the demons that were preparing to take him away, and he did cry out to God for help? If he did, he likely would spend a very very long time in the depths of purgatory as one other poster suggested. As I say about Hitler, it is POSSIBLE that he was saved but not LIKELY.
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  #17  
Old Apr 24, '12, 5:31 am
Bob Crowley Bob Crowley is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

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Originally Posted by Robertanthony View Post
Each and every time I see Bob post, I'm reminded of the sinister Aleister because they share the same name. I would have never dreamed to actually ask him about it fror various reasons. But to get back to OP, I did hear about that story (on Youtube incidentally) but I don't give it much creedence. It's like a lot of stuff, quotes that are attributed to saints which turn out often to be myths. I think it's a made up story, but the irony of him dying in a Catholic hospital did not escape me, though. That man Lavey fabricated everything about his persona, nearly everything he ever claimed has been proven false. From different accounts he was a cruel, dark, heartless man. If you've been living like the Devil for 60 some years, a last-minute change of heart with perfect contrition is unlikely, sadly. I knew some of his children were into some form or other of occultism, I didn't know one was Christian. So, in essence, I doubt that what you heard happened did happen and I doubt he got saved, although I, like God, desire that all men get saved. If he did get saved, he has to be in the lowest, darkest pit of Purgatory that is separated from Hell by an extremely thin veil. If you have time to spare pray for the people that he's mislead, his children etc. If he's in Purgatory he deserves every second there, if not, prayer can do nothing for him anyway.
Er... one of the moderators appears to be Augusta Crowley, but I'm no relation to her either that I know about. Her name often appears in the "Ask an Apologist" section, answering questions people might have.

I'm inclined to agree with you on Anton Lavey. There's a difference between being terrified because you can see Hell closing in, and being contrite because of your sins. Personally I think it was the former, but we'll only know for sure when we've gotten through our own judgment.

The rich man in Hell was in torment, but he wasn't contrite. Even then, his only concern was for his own brothers, and nobody else.
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  #18  
Old Apr 24, '12, 6:45 am
CompSciGuy CompSciGuy is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

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Originally Posted by Robertanthony View Post
Spiritual socialism does not exist. Some are born into loving families, others have heartless psychopaths as parents, some are born healthy, some are born with foetal alcohol syndrome because their lovely mother could not stay off booze for 9 straight months, some are born into wealthy families, some are born into destitute families. Some have someone praying for them day in day out, some don't pray and have never had someone pray for them. Reality is a b*tch to some and a beach to others. Being prayed for definitely gives someone an advantage over someone who is left to their own device, claiming otherwise is where the BS lies.
Spiritual socialism??? What about spiritual social darwinism? How nauseating. How can you equate salvation to socioeconomics? We're talking about a merciful God here. The whole idea of a popularity contest, of granting favor to those fortunate enough to be raised in a good Christian family, this is bogus and is against both scripture and against the teachings of the Church. God looks upon each person's situation and decides culpability this way, even the Church teaches this.

If "Our Lady of Fatima" supposedly claimed that such a system exists, then I reject the revelations at Fatima.
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  #19  
Old Apr 24, '12, 12:38 pm
Veronica97 Veronica97 is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=581446

This question was raised on another thread last year. I think you will find some very good answers. Basically, people are saying we all have SUFFICIENT grace in order to be saved. But when we pray for others, they are given EXTRA grace, beyond what they need in order to be saved. See, we have to RESPOND to grace. Someone gave the example of being invited to a wedding. You know that in order to go to the wedding, you have to get dressed and drive to the church. If you choose instead to lie around the house all day and not go, then that's your choice. You WERE invited. But let's say SOME people who were invited had friends who came over and banged on the door and shouted, "Come on, get dressed, it's time to go!" Those people with noisy, insistent friends may be more likely to respond to the invitation. But even then, some may dig in their heels and decide not to go.
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  #20  
Old Apr 24, '12, 1:24 pm
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domandcarols domandcarols is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

Only God knows the state of his soul.
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  #21  
Old Apr 24, '12, 7:47 pm
Robertanthony Robertanthony is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

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Originally Posted by CompSciGuy View Post
Spiritual socialism??? What about spiritual social darwinism? How nauseating. How can you equate salvation to socioeconomics? We're talking about a merciful God here. The whole idea of a popularity contest, of granting favor to those fortunate enough to be raised in a good Christian family, this is bogus and is against both scripture and against the teachings of the Church. God looks upon each person's situation and decides culpability this way, even the Church teaches this.

If "Our Lady of Fatima" supposedly claimed that such a system exists, then I reject the revelations at Fatima.
Socialism meaning everyone gets a fair share, things are equally distributed, I didn't mean that literally, there is obviously great discrepancies at all levels (spiritual, physical, intellectual, financial etc.) between all of us. If you take two individuals that have relatively similar profiles, one has his mother say a Rosary for him day in day out for 20 years, the other never prays, not once, and nobody prays for him, one gets an advantage. God is not bound to treat everybody the same, he favours whom he wants to favour, and I would argue that praying unceasingly is a good way to get God's attention and favours.
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  #22  
Old Apr 24, '12, 7:52 pm
Robertanthony Robertanthony is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

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Originally Posted by domandcarols View Post
Only God knows the state of his soul.
He did found the Church of Satan (sic), he was not your regular nice guy who falters and falls sometimes and who generally tries his best. However, however unlikely it is, I don't deny that he may have had a last-minute change of heart.
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  #23  
Old Apr 24, '12, 8:07 pm
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domandcarols domandcarols is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

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Originally Posted by Robertanthony View Post
He did found the Church of Satan (sic), he was not your regular nice guy who falters and falls sometimes and who generally tries his best. However, however unlikely it is, I don't deny that he may have had a last-minute change of heart.
Personally, I think it's most likely that he's in hell. I was more saying that for the people that are saying he may have had a deathbed conversion. Ultimately it's not really our place to speculate.
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Last edited by domandcarols; Apr 24, '12 at 8:22 pm.
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  #24  
Old Apr 25, '12, 7:19 am
Catholic1954 Catholic1954 is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

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Originally Posted by CompSciGuy View Post
Ohh really?? And just when did "Our Lady" say that? I say that is bogus. There is no way that our omnipotent God, who is merciful and looks out for the disenfranchised, is going to damn someone just because they aren't popular enough to have people pray for them. I call BS. Our destiny depends on our decision, and upon God's grace.
Our Lady of Fatima told the three children that many souls went to hell because no one prayed for them.
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  #25  
Old Apr 25, '12, 8:10 am
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tabsie3210 tabsie3210 is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

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Originally Posted by Catholic1954 View Post
Our Lady of Fatima told the three children that many souls went to hell because no one prayed for them.
I always took that to mean that people who were obstinate, hard-hearted, and thick-headed would go to hell because they wouldn't have any desire to save themselves, but that when you pray for them, you unite your Free Will to God's Will, and the graces poured out because of those prayers can help break through the stubborn soul and help bring repentence.

And don't forget, there's no such thing as "time." If the Eucharist we participate in every Sunday is the exact same one as the Last Supper, which occurred the night before Our Lord's body was killed and his heart pierced - well! Time doesn't mean anything. So we pray, even after the fact, that at the moment of death this seriously-messed-up man had an honest-to-goodness conversion experience and was saved from Hell.

Amen
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  #26  
Old Apr 25, '12, 9:23 am
someperson555 someperson555 is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

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Originally Posted by Robertanthony View Post
Socialism meaning everyone gets a fair share, things are equally distributed, I didn't mean that literally, there is obviously great discrepancies at all levels (spiritual, physical, intellectual, financial etc.) between all of us. If you take two individuals that have relatively similar profiles, one has his mother say a Rosary for him day in day out for 20 years, the other never prays, not once, and nobody prays for him, one gets an advantage. God is not bound to treat everybody the same, he favours whom he wants to favour, and I would argue that praying unceasingly is a good way to get God's attention and favours.
first of all, thats not socialism. there are many different types of socialism and equal distribution of capital is just one type. second, i dont think God favors anyone over another person for no reason. i always thought that God favors people based on merit. that is the only fair way, if God favors certain people over others for no reason, then he is not a God of justice.
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  #27  
Old Apr 25, '12, 9:27 am
someperson555 someperson555 is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

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Originally Posted by tabsie3210 View Post
I always took that to mean that people who were obstinate, hard-hearted, and thick-headed would go to hell because they wouldn't have any desire to save themselves, but that when you pray for them, you unite your Free Will to God's Will, and the graces poured out because of those prayers can help break through the stubborn soul and help bring repentence.

And don't forget, there's no such thing as "time." If the Eucharist we participate in every Sunday is the exact same one as the Last Supper, which occurred the night before Our Lord's body was killed and his heart pierced - well! Time doesn't mean anything. So we pray, even after the fact, that at the moment of death this seriously-messed-up man had an honest-to-goodness conversion experience and was saved from Hell.

Amen
exactly i think thats where most people misunderstood our lady. its not like people go to Hell because no one prays for them. its more like people who chose hell out of their own free will can be saved if people pray for them. so i think our lady should have phrased it differently. she probably meant: many sinners remain unconverted because theres no one to pray for them.
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  #28  
Old Apr 25, '12, 10:04 am
losh14 losh14 is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

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According to Church teaching, anyone who is truly sorry (says a perfect act of contrition) before they die is saved. HOWEVER we are still responsible for the harm and sins that we have committed. He may have to spend a long time in Purgatory,


The question is, was he really sorry for his sins, or did he just not want to face the consequences. Only God knows what was in his heart,
It sounds overly technical but it makes sense - perfect sorrow is motivated by love for God, not just fear of Hell. It's like someone who becomes an evangelical and confesses belief in Jesus Christ only out of sheer fear of Hell, not out of desire for love of the Lord. If Lavey is saved it is by Divine Mercy alone, though truthfully we are all saved by Divine Mercy, that form of Grace that gives us we never merited, and does not give us what we most certainly deserve.

This is why the Church teaches that Sacramental confession is necessary for absolution unless there is perfect contrition. I don't know whether it is the intercession of the priest in the confessional, or merely the exercising of the power to loose and to bind, that brings an imperfect contrition to the same absolution that a perfect contrition receives without Sacramental confession.

If time is still relevant in terms of Purgatory ... maybe it's even more generally correct to say "Purgatory will have more work to do on him than one who started walking with Christ long ago."

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It is an interesting question though, Our Lady tells us that some folks end up damned, merely because there is no one to pray for them. It makes me wonder IF the reverse were true.... IF someone prays for some one like a lavey or someone far worse, like a Hilter, would they be saved or would their wickedness be too far over the top to avoid damnation.
I think you're approaching this with charity but I don't know if that's what she meant.
Upon death, our destination is set - Heaven (through Purgatory), or Hell. Prayers are of no use to one in Hell, and even if prayers speed one through Purgatory, one who is not prayed for will not languish eternally in Purgatory, but only for a longer time. The only time that prayer makes a difference in salvation or damnation is for those on earth.

Now, yes, if no one prays for you, you don't have that additional spiritual defense, nor do you receive the blessings of intercession from those who love the Lord. You are alone on the battlefield, constantly under attack, and easy prey for the devil and his angels as they stalk you. But salvation is still possible to you - more difficult perhaps if there is no help in prayer to deflect the arrows of the enemy - but still possible.
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  #29  
Old Apr 25, '12, 10:11 am
losh14 losh14 is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

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Originally Posted by someperson555 View Post
exactly i think thats where most people misunderstood our lady. its not like people go to Hell because no one prays for them. its more like people who chose hell out of their own free will can be saved if people pray for them. so i think our lady should have phrased it differently. she probably meant: many sinners remain unconverted because theres no one to pray for them.
Okay, so we said the same thing. Thanks for clarifying (and I think we posted quasi-simultaneously).

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Our Lady of Fatima told the three children that many souls went to hell because no one prayed for them.
I was just going to ask for the source...
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  #30  
Old Apr 25, '12, 10:22 am
Robertanthony Robertanthony is offline
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Default Re: do you think anton lavey is saved?

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first of all, thats not socialism. there are many different types of socialism and equal distribution of capital is just one type. second, i dont think God favors anyone over another person for no reason. i always thought that God favors people based on merit. that is the only fair way, if God favors certain people over others for no reason, then he is not a God of justice.
If someone hires workers to work all day in his fields and a wage is determined and accepted by all, if towards the end of the day, the fields owner realizes he needs to hire more people to get everything done by the end of the day, is he unjust if he pays the workers who started working near the end of the day the exact same amount that the workers who started in the morning get? Do the workers who came in early have reason to feel unfairly treated? God favour whom he wills to favour. Quite frankly, if it boiled down to merit, I think Saul (St. Paul) would have been struck dead rather than struck down from his horse on the way to Damascus. Never mind what I said about socialism, the plain fact is that having a constant intercessor (someone praying for you) is way more desirable than not having one. Why would God deny person a of his blessings when someone else intercedes for person a, just because no one ever prays for person b (nothing is taken from person b).
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