'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery - Page 3

**JharekCarnelian** · #31 Apr 14, '12, 10:19 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

Well, one of them was what Jesus asked: feed my sheep.

Still not finding anything about "humbly submit to authority." In fact, in Acts, Paul does question the Church in Jerusalem, about requiring Gentiles to be circumcised. That was a good thing, big discussion, changed the "dogma." It was dogma, of course, pretty much the oldest sign of being one of the children of Abraham.

I agree that the priest going to the parishioners, or the "sheep" with the opinions while performing his priestly duties is very inappropriate. So, this priest in the op, he was for ending the celibacy requirement for all priests (not dogma, of course) women's ordination,
(you can argue that one) and he was very critical of how the sexual abuse of children issue was handled by the Vatican. Were there other things?

But he isn't alone, from what I read, there seem to be a rather large number of priests who agree with at least part of what he said. I don't know which parts, because in all of this, I still don't find any actual quotes from the priest in question about anything or from the other priests.

I wish, for myself, that at Mass a priest would stick to bringing us the Word and the Sacraments and not be going "off-topic." That's what I think "feed my sheep" means. I was spoiled by going to Mass every week with Archbishop Chaput as celebrant, of course.

You most certainly cannot argue about women's ordination. The best you can do is show that perhaps women at time should have been more valued for their contributions, but there is no argument to be had about women's ordination. It's flat out impossible and never going to be allowed, a point the Church has restated continually.

Father Flannery can certainly present reasons for or against maintaing clerical celibacy in the west but at this point he has set himself up in an arrogant manner against the hieracy and he iis expected to obey his superiors in the hierarchy.

AnotherVoice · #32 Apr 14, '12, 8:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopemercy

Julia Mae... these men took Vows when they were ordained. Of Obedience to the Pope to their bishops, etc etc etc.

They did so as adults, after many years of formation.

These are Life Vows..

Within the Catholic Church.

If they find that they can no longer keep these Vows, and patently they are not doing so, then the honest thing would be to apply for laicisation.

These are worldly men so maybe they need to look at a worldly firm/company. If an employee starts to speak out against the directors can he expect to be approved?

I agree. If these men can no longer honor their vows; then ask to be relieved.

At a private company dissent is expected to be dealt with internally not by taking it up in the papers. These gentlemen would not fare well in the corporate world.

Brendan · #33 Apr 15, '12, 6:02 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

Well, one of them was what Jesus asked: feed my sheep. .

Yep, and Christ told Peter to Rule his sheep. That is commonly translated as the more passive 'tend' but Jesus really told Peter to RULE his sheep. The Greek word used, "poimainō", is the same verb used to describe the relationship a King has towards his people, or an Officer towards his troops.

It means to oversee with command.

It's the exact same word used in Rev 19:21 to describe Christ's authority at the Second Coming.

Quote:

Quote:

From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule (poimainō) them with a rod of iron"

So why don't these priests accept the Word of God and be ruled by the See of Peter?

**catharina** · #34 Apr 15, '12, 7:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizaanne

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Cat...147131755.html

I for one say bring it on. I think it would be good for there to be a cleaning of house in the Catholic Church, and if folks can't get with the program, and refuse to actually BE Catholic, then they make the decision to leave the Church. But do not stay inside and try to destroy it from within.

~Liza

The article is very negative, esp the involvement of "local priests" in dissent.
Actually, it sounds rather like same mess that stirred Chicago in the '60s and '70s.

It will end with departures from the priesthood as it did in Chicago.
May Our Lord bless His Church.

**catharina** · #35 Apr 15, '12, 7:55 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

... So I guess a priest disagreeing with a teaching you personally subscribe to is bad, but people challenging a Pope when you disagree with him is okay? So it is about what you think, then?

...

You seem to imagine that dissent is really fine in certain circumsatnces.

It is NOT fine for priests or for the laity.
Due to their perceived authority, priests
who dissent can likely cause more harm
than the laity could cause.

Why do you imagine that dissent is really OK?

Hopemercy · #36 Apr 15, '12, 8:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewEnglandPriest

Every now and then there's predictions of a "Catholic revolt against the Vatican" in one area of the world or another. And it always is much ado about nothing. I'd be surprised if this didn't just fizzle out and fade away within a few months.

Afterall, just what exactly is this revolt supposed to entail? Church attendance and support are at record lows and trending downwards. What are they going to do now? Steal money instead of failing to give any?

You underestimate the tenacity and stubbornness of the Irish temperament, especially where a religion that is nationalistic is concerned.

Flanerry et al are not going to let go. Interesting that they call themselves Liberal Catholics as if it were a separate church...

Wondering what the Vatican will do...

saveusfromhell · #37 Apr 15, '12, 11:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

I think that is highly unlikely as the Lambeg drum and beating it is bound up with unionism as a political symbol and it's a rather bizarre leap to think that people will stop been Catholic and then suddenly start all been unionists. Hundreds of thousands of younger Irish people have been at best nominally Catholic for years and hundreds of thousands of Irish people are non-Catholic. Irishness is not defined entirely by been Catholic.

Not where I was going with that. In fact you probably well aware I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about the north whether they want to be Irish or part of the union.

[quote][Irish people have been at best nominally Catholic for years and hundreds of thousands of Irish people are non-Catholic/QUOTE]
I know this. What I’m referring to. If you believe what the protestant groupings of Christianity believe, than why would you want to be called catholic? Which is where I believe this is going, maybe get enough people with them to create a schism? We all know the church will not bend or change, so what option can they choose.
So maybe they won't be looking for the union to be maintained but the feeling towards the pope seems similar

**catharina** · #38 Apr 15, '12, 11:43 am

[quote=saveusfromhell;9186495]Not where I was going with that. In fact you probably well aware I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about the north whether they want to be Irish or part of the union.

Quote:

[Irish people have been at best nominally Catholic for years and hundreds of thousands of Irish people are non-Catholic/QUOTE]
I know this. What I’m referring to. If you believe what the protestant groupings of Christianity believe, than why would you want to be called catholic? Which is where I believe this is going, maybe get enough people with them to create a schism? We all know the church will not bend or change, so what option can they choose.So maybe they won't be looking for the union to be maintained but the feeling towards the pope seems similar

Conforming themselves to the will of God
as revealed by His holy chuch is a wise move.

Or is that too easy?

gus · #39 Apr 15, '12, 5:48 pm

Isn't there a Church of Ireland were the can go if unhappy with The Catholic Church.

**catharina** · #40 Apr 15, '12, 8:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gus

Isn't there a Church of Ireland were the can go if unhappy with The Catholic Church.

Are you asking if there is a Protestant church in Ireland?

Yes. People can "go" there,
but they will be abandoning the
truth, abandoning the Faith their
fathers preserved for them - often
with their own lives.

pepipop · #41 Apr 16, '12, 4:54 am

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000..._wsj#printMode

Traditional Catholicism Is Winning - There were 467 new priestly ordinations in the U.S. last year, and Boston's seminary had to turn away applicants.

Possibly, this article sould be sent to the ACP, which is very heartening. These are the type of priests the catholic laity want.

NewEnglandPriest · #42 Apr 16, '12, 5:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopemercy

You underestimate the tenacity and stubbornness of the Irish temperament, especially where a religion that is nationalistic is concerned.

Catholicism in Ireland has already experienced a decline in Mass attendance and the young barely attend at all. So what exactly is this "revolt" supposed to do? How do people who are already not in church revolt?

Quote:

Flanerry et al are not going to let go. Interesting that they call themselves Liberal Catholics as if it were a separate church...

Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Calling oneself a liberal or conservative Catholic doesn't automatically imply a separate church. And while Fr. Flannery might be the news of the day, in time he'll be pushed out of the papers by some other story.

YoungIreland · #43 Apr 16, '12, 7:08 am

Another renegade priest has been disciplined by the Vatican. Fr. Sean Fagan had been very vocal about his support for women priests and an end to celibacy. Here is the article from the Indo:

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...y-3081567.html

And here is the reaction of my friend Shane over at Lux Occulta:

http://lxoa.wordpress.com/2012/04/16...iest-silenced/

Hopemercy · #44 Apr 16, '12, 8:14 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewEnglandPriest

Catholicism in Ireland has already experienced a decline in Mass attendance and the young barely attend at all. So what exactly is this "revolt" supposed to do? How do people who are already not in church revolt?

Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Calling oneself a liberal or conservative Catholic doesn't automatically imply a separate church. And while Fr. Flannery might be the news of the day, in time he'll be pushed out of the papers by some other story.

Hey I am in Ireland and the picture in many rural areas is not as you are seeing it. Churches are crowded on Sundays and whole families attend.

Fr F et al are pushing themselves into the news in every way they can and are very persistent so you ignored my statement on that.. Unless he is stopped?

No he will not leave of his own volition.. why should he when he has everything provided for him than thinks he is right?

Hopemercy · #45 Apr 16, '12, 10:51 am

[quote=saveusfromhell;9186495]Not where I was going with that. In fact you probably well aware I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about the north whether they want to be Irish or part of the union.

Quote:

[Irish people have been at best nominally Catholic for years and hundreds of thousands of Irish people are non-Catholic/QUOTE

Quote:

]
I know this. What I’m referring to. If you believe what the protestant groupings of Christianity believe, than why would you want to be called catholic? Which is where I believe this is going, maybe get enough people with them to create a schism? We all know the church will not bend or change, so what option can they choose.
So maybe they won't be looking for the union to be maintained but the feeling towards the pope seems similar

Trying to quote the post that that came from..

I find this is not so here in Ireland... one good thing now is that there is more sincerity and commitment than there has ever been.

When I moved to a different county nearly 2 years ago, I saw crowded churches and whole families. My landlord's family is one such. Devotedly devout. I talked long with them . They have no illusions re the bishops.. say that they should all be sacked and that Cardinal Brady shoudl stand down.. scathing re the priests and re Fr Flannery etc,, depending on and trusting in the Lord and thus staying more faithful to the Faith than many of the hierarchy.
In most towns now weekday mass has strong attendance.

Fr Flannery has no chance of schism. But he is causing much angst and irritation and polarising more than he realises.