'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery - Page 6

Hopemercy · #76 Apr 19, '12, 11:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gus

So you believe our Pope was a Nazi?

?? where is that coming from?? A total non-seqiutor and irrelevant

Hopemercy · #77 Apr 19, '12, 11:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by saveusfromhell

Gus is replying to this statement, so it is relevant and not a straw man.
personally i have heard this citted by the irish independent irish times and on rte 1.

anyone who believes that the media does provide a fair and balanced approach on the Irish church needs to read patsy mcgarrity in the Irish times or when he is interviewed as the religious affairs correspondent for pat Kenny,

Anyone who speaks like this needs to read the Ryan and Murthy reports, or counsel survivors of the regime of terror here.

As always there is so much spin going around and at least the press avoid and challenge that.

Damaged people tend to react with anger that is entirely justifiable. There was nothing fair or balanced in the actions of the Church.

Hopemercy · #78 Apr 19, '12, 11:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

I disagree. he is equating the position Hopandmercy takes on the source of problems in the Church in Ireland with the ludicrous charges often levelled at Pope Benedict of him been a Nazi.

I actually feel that whilst the Church in Ireland does indeed bear a heavy, heavy responsibility we the laity and the Irish people generally also bear some of the fault.

Still totally irrlelevant.

OK so how do the laity bear the fault here? Because this is simply not true, given the control the Church abrogated over every facet of Irish life. That is what you are not getting!

What the Pope did in his youth is also irelevant.

BlueSapphire · #79 Apr 19, '12, 11:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopemercy

Still totally irrlelevant.

OK so how do the laity bear the fault here? Because this is simply not true, given the control the Church abrogated over every facet of Irish life. That is what you are not getting!

What the Pope did in his youth is also irelevant.

Over many years the Irish Government allowed the Church to have too much control in society because it suited them to!

BlueSapphire · #80 Apr 20, '12, 12:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by minkymurph

I'm not so sure. Well, I hope I'm not so sure. There was a big debate recently on abortion law in the north of Ireland - relating to the fact that abortions are carried out despite the fact it's 'illegal.' However, Sinn Fein were smart and consulted their electorate before deciding if they were opposed or in favor of abortion. Their electorate were opposed, so Sinn Fein were opposed on that basis. Clever political move.

There is no doubt there is great opposition to abortion in the north. I think we are very fortunate in that most people here are still opposed to it.

Sinn Fein were exposed as liars yesterday when it came to a vote in the Dail!

Quote:

Bernadette Smith added, "To Sinn Fein's shame, they voted in support of this Abortion Bill. Their speeches at Easter claiming they want an Irish Republic based on the 1916 Proclamation are now exposed as lies. The Proclamation calls on Irish people to cherish all the children of the nation. The question Sinn Fein now has to answer is, how can they cherish children while supporting killing children before they're born?"

http://www.preciouslife.com/?va=1&vc=1134

**JharekCarnelian** · #81 Apr 20, '12, 2:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueSapphire

Over many years the Irish Government allowed the Church to have too much control in society because it suited them to!

That was exactly my point, in addition because it was socially awkward for the average citizesn such as ourselves to challenge that status quo many of us just let it be across those years. It was easy for you voice saying 'we want reform' to be twisted into saying something more sinister and for that to cause you to be ostracised or face real problems in many areas of your life. Hence people not surprisingly stayed quiet.

**JharekCarnelian** · #82 Apr 20, '12, 2:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopemercy

Still totally irrlelevant.

OK so how do the laity bear the fault here? Because this is simply not true, given the control the Church abrogated over every facet of Irish life. That is what you are not getting!

What the Pope did in his youth is also irelevant.

What the Pope did in his youth is indeed irrelevant to this thread. If you read back you will note I did not introduce that to the thread and pointed out it was a strawman.

Blue Sapphire has made my point for me that the Church and govt. acting together caused aor facilitated many of the problems. The whip falls across our own back as well as citizens of the state as well with regards to the whole stiatuation, many of us didn't speak up because it meant real problems for you years ago if you did.

minkymurph · #83 Apr 20, '12, 3:00 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueSapphire

Sinn Fein were exposed as liars yesterday when it came to a vote in the Dail!

http://www.preciouslife.com/?va=1&vc=1134

And they weren't exposed as liars before that?

As if a member of Sinn Fein, or any politician for that matter would lie.

On a more serious note, are you saying they voted for abortion in the Dail? What I was getting at in my post is their policy was determined by the fact they didn't want to loose the support of their electorate rather than any moral issue. If their electorate were in support of abortion, that would be their policy. One has to admit it's a shrewd political move, all be it not a very moral one, but it is the world of politics. As such, in my view Sinn Fein are political cameleon's when it comes to policy, and if your saying they voted for abortion in the Dail, it kind of proves my point.

BlueSapphire · #84 Apr 20, '12, 12:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by minkymurph

And they weren't exposed as liars before that?

As if a member of Sinn Fein, or any politician for that matter would lie.

.

Ender · #85 Apr 20, '12, 12:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

I wish someplace there were actual quotes from the man.

The article provided this direct quote from what he had written:

“Opening up the ministry of the church to laypeople, to married people, to priests, to women. In other words, not confining it to the male celibate priesthood as we’ve had in the past..."

This issue is closed as far as the ordination of women is concerned. It is an infallible teaching that a priest must be male and Fr. Flannery does everyone a disservice when he preaches otherwise.

Ender

NewEnglandPriest · #86 Apr 21, '12, 9:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopemercy

They wouldn't have him! Would any church?

I have no idea. I'm not the one claiming he should leave.

Quote:

Is he still Catholic? in the true sense?

What is "the true sense"? As far as I know he hasn't been excommunicated.

Quote:

Given that he is opposing the Authitory of the Pope himslf? And exhorting many others to do the same.

There's lots of spats in the Church, nothing new here.

Ender · #87 Apr 21, '12, 1:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewEnglandPriest

What is "the true sense"? As far as I know he hasn't been excommunicated.

One does not have to be excommunicated to no longer be a Catholic.

Actually only those are to be included (annumerandi) as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body (neque a Corporis compage semet ipsos misere separarunt)... (Pius XII)

I have some trouble with the concept of heresy ( "... the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith" ) but it seems clear both that the teaching that women may not be ordained is one that "must be believed" and that Fr. Flannery doesn't believe it. Which naturally raises two questions: does this make him a heretic and would a heretic not be considered to have separated himself from the unity of the Body?

Ender

Non sum dignus · #88 Apr 22, '12, 9:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawnia

Sounds to me like Ireland needs a modern day St. Patrick.

Yep. Looks like the snakes are back.

saveusfromhell · #89 Apr 22, '12, 12:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopemercy

[/b]

Anyone who speaks like this needs to read the Ryan and Murthy reports, or counsel survivors of the regime of terror here
]As always there is so much spin going around and at least the press avoid and challenge that.

Damaged people tend to react with anger that is entirely justifiable. There was nothing fair or balanced in the actions of the Church.

i am tired replying to rubbish, i'm not even sure you have been able to comprehend what has been posted. The strawman argument you quote to jharek? The church is everybody who believes. The Ryan report I have heard enough of to be sickened. the media particularly in patsy mcgarrity is anything but fair and spin is there game.

**Holly3278** · #90 Apr 22, '12, 8:32 pm

The article seems to put forth the position that it is a bad thing that the Church is silencing and punishing dissent. How stupid. The Church has every right to silence and punish dissent from Her teachings. If you don't agree with the Catholic Church's teachings then why are you a Catholic? Its understandable if you have trouble agreeing with the Church's teachings but you are trying to reconcile your beliefs with that of the Church.

That said, where is the obedience in these people who support Fr. Flannery? They should be supporting the Vatican which is disciplining him.

It seems as though the Church in Ireland has gotten increasingly unorthodox. May Saint Patrick pray for the Church in Ireland that it would make a full and complete return to orthodoxy.