If God didn't create HELL or EVIL, but permitted it, how ... - Page 2

rvergenz · #16 Apr 20, '12, 7:41 am

Hi all,
Hell seems to have been created by God, out of love/respect for those who choose an eternity away from him. But God did not create evil. Rather, he created creatures with free will, angels and humanity, so that they had the power to live in loving communion with him. In order to love, one must be able to freely choose. Love cannot be forced. A consequence of free will is the ability to choose not to love, thus evil and all its consequences, and the need for a "space" of eternally apart from God. In the same way that heaven is the state of being in the presence of God face to face (beautific vision), hell is the state of being forever apart from God. The greatest pain of hell is the remorse of being eternally separated from God and his love.

My own speculation is that the second greatest pain of hell may be that in the absence of love, rule is by the mightiest. Think of the torment inflicted on the victims of Hitler's Nazi concentration camps. Then think of being deliberately tormented eternally for the pleasure of a supernatural intelligence.The neighbors, Satan and his minions, are much more powerful than any human, and they particularly hate us because we are made in the image of God.
Love in Christ, Bob

jcrichton · #17 Apr 20, '12, 11:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvergenz

Hi all,
Hell seems to have been created by God, out of love/respect for those who choose an eternity away from him. But God did not create evil. Rather, he created creatures with free will, angels and humanity, so that they had the power to live in loving communion with him. In order to love, one must be able to freely choose. Love cannot be forced. A consequence of free will is the ability to choose not to love, thus evil and all its consequences, and the need for a "space" of eternally apart from God. In the same way that heaven is the state of being in the presence of God face to face (beautific vision), hell is the state of being forever apart from God. The greatest pain of hell is the remorse of being eternally separated from God and his love.

My own speculation is that the second greatest pain of hell may be that in the absence of love, rule is by the mightiest. Think of the torment inflicted on the victims of Hitler's Nazi concentration camps. Then think of being deliberately tormented eternally for the pleasure of a supernatural intelligence.The neighbors, Satan and his minions, are much more powerful than any human, and they particularly hate us because we are made in the image of God.
Love in Christ, Bob

...but it is clear from Scriptures that Satan and his minions will also be tortured... do you recall the passage where a demon asks something to the effect: '...why have you come to torment us before time?'

Maran atha!

Angel

rdscheirer · #18 Apr 21, '12, 2:45 pm

I think Albert Einstein said it best- I paraphrase- can we measure darkness no we can only mesure light- can we measure cold no only can we measure warmth- can we measure evil- no we can't because the the abcence of Love is evil.

GodHeals · #19 May 11, '12, 2:55 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by fred conty

Sounds as tho the Muslem's hell is our purgatory.

We can't prove anything when it comes to the next world since it is out of our reach except for our faith.

Give him a Green Scapular. I believe Muslems revere Mary.

Mary appeared and spoke with Sister Justine Bisqueyburu, a
Daughter of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul, in 1840, about a green scapular.

Mary herself made promises to those who would keep the scapular on them, and would say a certain prayer everyday, and believe that Mary would obtain those favors from her Son. Here are the favors she promised:

1. Conversion of those who do not have the faith
2. Reconciliation to the Church for those who have lost/strayed from the faith
3. Assurance of a happy death
4. Strengthening of the faith for those already in the Church
5. Protection from Satan for those who wear or promote the scapular

This is the very answer to your search. But on your part you must
pray, at least daily: "Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.",
once for yourself and once for your friend every day.

Here are the very words of Mary to Sister Justine:
"The GREATEST graces come from using the scapular but these graces come
in direct proportion to the degree of CONFIDENCE in ME which the user has."
The user is the giver in this case, the trust depends on you for it to work well.

Fear is a sign of lack of trust.
What kind of confidence? Mary showed this herself at the annunciation of Gabriel.
"Yes, blessed is she who BELIEVED that the PROMISE made her by the Lord would be FULFILLED." (Lk. 1;45)
St. Elizabeth extolling the absolute trust of Mary in God's promise. Mary believed without doubt that it would happen as the angel said it would.

You may get a free one by googling "Green Scapular". Get one for yourself as well.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=620449
(From an atheist)
How did you come to embrace Catholicism?
Strangely enough, it was the Blessed Virgin Mary. That friend of mine had sneakily
snuck in a scapular under my mattress. I didn't know until about 1 year into my
conversion. I imagine that she had something to do with it. I think it was the
green scapular.

THANKS BE TO GOD. I LOVE MOTHER MARY! I APPRECIATE YOUR SHARING. I DO HAVE A BROWN SCAPULAR FROM FIRST COMMUNION? I THINK? I HAVE WORN IT OFF AND ON. DO YOU WEAR YOUR SCAPULAR EVERYDAY? I JUST DON'T LIKE HOW IT FEELS UNDER MY SHIRT... NOT SURE IF THAT IS A GOOD ENOUGH EXCUSE!

I HAVE HAD A COUPLE OF POWERFUL DREAMS OF MARY; ONE OR TWO? SUCKING FLIES (EVIL?) OUT OF ME WHERE I WOKE UP. THIS WAS IN 2004 OR SO I BELIEVE. THEY WERE POWERFUL, BUT I DIDN'T AND STILL AM LEARNING WHAT THEY MEANT. I BELIEVE MOTHER MARY HAS PROTECTED ME FROM FALLING DEEPER INTO SIN AND EVIL AND BROUGHT ME CLOSER TO JESUS.

Sorry for the CAPS. Not sure why I used them. Wasn't yelling at you.
God Bless You,
Brian

GodHeals · #20 May 11, '12, 3:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcrichton

...but it is clear from Scriptures that Satan and his minions will also be tortured... do you recall the passage where a demon asks something to the effect: '...why have you come to torment us before time?'

Maran atha!

Angel

Thanks for bringing us back to scripture, I noticed that about your posts.

You did bring up the scripture that God has prepared a place for us in hell...but i didn't do the research on the Greek context of the word PREPARED Matthew 25:41 and its surrounding usage. I am not sure yet it means God created hell. The Catholic.com Michelle said God didn't create hell... THANKS FOR THE INSIGHTS!

Brian

GodHeals · #21 May 11, '12, 3:17 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvergenz

Love in Christ, Bob

Thanks for your posting, Bob. Pax Christi Brother!
Brian

jcrichton · #22 May 13, '12, 10:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodHeals

Thanks for bringing us back to scripture, I noticed that about your posts.

You did bring up the scripture that God has prepared a place for us in hell...but i didn't do the research on the Greek context of the word PREPARED Matthew 25:41 and its surrounding usage. I am not sure yet it means God created hell. The Catholic.com Michelle said God didn't create hell... THANKS FOR THE INSIGHTS!

Brian

...actually Scriptures states it this way:

Quote:

41 Then he will say to those on his left hand, "Go away from me, with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (St. Matthew 25:41)

...granted, anyone can speculate as to what the passage actually means... but I doubt very much that any serious consideration can be given to "eternal fire" not meaning hell (conversely, ditto the lake of fire where the worm never dies)--that place of pain and torment; and as far as Creation... how can anyone other than God have the Power to Create?

Clearly, the Creation of hell does not mean that God Created evil; hell is simply a place where God's Wrath would meet the father of lies (and his minions, both angels and humans), that ancient murderer and evil spiritual being.

Maran atha!

Angel

Nicea325 · #23 May 14, '12, 2:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodHeals

Hi, If God didn't create HELL or EVIL, but permitted it, how can we be said to create the physical place of hell?

Evil is that which is lacking the fullness of good (or that which is good, God). Here is what Saint Faustina says: http://www.divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

I haven't read it, but I head the children of Fatima were also shown hell, or Mother Mary told them about it or something..

I am talking to a Muslim friend who says they can get out of hell after serving time there (Islam seems to teach that theory), and cannot seem to get across the message of God's perfect justice which is eternal. I also mentioned the above, but Muslims seem to say God created hell.

Thanks for your scholarly help in advance!

God did create Hell for Lucifer and his gang of rebellious angels. God is in control of everything seen or unseen.

Crumpy · #24 May 14, '12, 5:03 pm

An early church writer put it this way:

to understand the distinction between the devil and evil, God created the spirits we call devils. They became devils by using their free will to oppose God's commands.

The actual analogy used was murder. God created man but men became murderers by their the bad use of their free will.

"permitting" evil is the the same thing God did with all of us.

GodHeals · #25 Jun 9, '12, 2:35 am

Full Question
If God created everything, then didn't he create hell, too? If he created hell, then is hell good, since everything God created was good?
Answer

Hell is primarily an eternal state of separation between God and those creatures—angels and humans—who have permanently chosen to reject him. God created free will, which is good, but hell is the result of the abuse of free will. God did not create hell; he only allowed for its possibility. Thus it cannot be said that hell is good.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestio...od-create-hell

I am not sure if this comment above talks directly about the physical aspect of hell. God allowed for the possibility of sin (missing the mark by way of choosing that which is not good, evil) and sin's consequence, spiritual and physical death in hell.

Still not sure if God created the physical place of hell or not.

jcrichton · #26 Jun 10, '12, 8:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodHeals

Full Question
If God created everything, then didn't he create hell, too? If he created hell, then is hell good, since everything God created was good?
Answer

Hell is primarily an eternal state of separation between God and those creatures—angels and humans—who have permanently chosen to reject him. God created free will, which is good, but hell is the result of the abuse of free will. God did not create hell; he only allowed for its possibility. Thus it cannot be said that hell is good.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestio...od-create-hell

I am not sure if this comment above talks directly about the physical aspect of hell. God allowed for the possibility of sin (missing the mark by way of choosing that which is not good, evil) and sin's consequence, spiritual and physical death in hell.

Still not sure if God created the physical place of hell or not.

...there's nothing anyone can force another person to believe, short of torture and brainwashing--but even in those cases, the first would only yield what the toturer wants to hear... there's no guarantee that the victim's mind has been changed; the latter only demonstrates that humans have a finite ability and can be tricked or controlled to act as those in control have compelled them to do; hence, the mind has not been changed but altered (suppressed) and the victim, once normality resumes, would return to the original belief...

Scriptures tell us that Yahweh God (the Triune God) is the Creator of both the physical and the spiritual; consider that Creation was good and everything was good till Lucifer decided to usurp God's Authority... Hell was not part of the original Creation; rather, it was a response to the devil's challenge of God's Authority... consider too that the Spirit is immortal hence a dwelling place had to be Created to confine Satan and his minions.

Maran atha!

Angel