Why do we consider God's sending his son to be such a great act of love?

[Poseidon]

I've never understood why this was always considered such a sacrifice. God sent his son to die for our sins, but neither God nor Jesus actually lost anything. Basically, the way I see it is Jesus was in heaven, went to earth for a few decades to do an unpleasant, but quick (relative to eternity 30-some years is really quick) job, and then he went back up to heaven. Job done. Easy peasy. Why do people always talk about this like it was such a sacrifice?

[PatriceA]

Do you have children? No parent wants to see their child treated the way Jesus was treated, even if the parent knows the outcome. To watch your child go through the sacrifices Jesus had to make for people that rejected him, continue to reject him, that is the greatest sacrifice a parent can make.

[Gorgias]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

I've never understood why this was always considered such a sacrifice. God sent his son to die for our sins

Actually, God the Father sent the Son to be the promised Messiah, in order to redeem us from the sinfulness inherent in theact of the human creature turning away from the divine creator. The Son, in full communion with the Father, and in an act of love, died in order to give something to the Father that the Father values most highly: life-giving love. In other words, (according to Aquinas, as I understand him), the satisfaction that the Son provides isn't a penal payment or a sort of transaction; rather, it is the Son's expression of love for the Father and for all of humanity, in which the Son's giving-up of his humanity ratifies, fulfills, and redeems the love that humanity was given but wasn't able to return to God.

but neither God nor Jesus actually lost anything.

Right. It isn't a matter of an accountant's balance sheet, in which he marks what was lost through sin and makes sure there's a balancing notation on the other side.

Basically, the way I see it is Jesus was in heaven, went to earth for a few decades to do an unpleasant, but quick (relative to eternity 30-some years is really quick) job, and then he went back up to heaven. Job done. Easy peasy. Why do people always talk about this like it was such a sacrifice?

Tell ya what... give up your life for someone -- someone who isn't even asking for or appreciative of your actions -- and in the afterlife, we'll talk about whether it was "easy peasy", or even if it wasn't "such a sacrifice"...

[fhansen]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

I've never understood why this was always considered such a sacrifice. God sent his son to die for our sins, but neither God nor Jesus actually lost anything. Basically, the way I see it is Jesus was in heaven, went to earth for a few decades to do an unpleasant, but quick (relative to eternity 30-some years is really quick) job, and then he went back up to heaven. Job done. Easy peasy. Why do people always talk about this like it was such a sacrifice?

How long is enough? Each of our lives represent the way we think our existence should be experienced; Jesus chose His. Jesus as Son is an anthropomorphism, the best way we have of describing and understanding the relationship of the incarnate God/man with the omni-present God who is spirit. So in Jesus, God suffered as a human and laid down His life for us, proving what He shouldn't have to prove: that He exists, that He's infinitely trustworthy, and that He's always loved man with an unconditional love far beyond our ability to fully comprehend. Man was the source of enmity, according to scripture, and the source of mistrust, according to the Catechism.

It was a great sacrifice because it was done voluntarily by a being who didn't deserve it and could've refrained from it. God doesn't violate man's will-that's why sin is possible-that's why sin exists in our world. But now, with the cross, we have another choice out of the myriad of choices that present themselves to us. We can see God as love, IOW we can see the foundation of the universe as running counter to the way the world's values work; as good and kind and loving and humble and self-sacrificing, and we we can opt for which we'll go. In this way the Cross now stands as a choice, not as coercion.

[Gaber]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

I've never understood why this was always considered such a sacrifice. God sent his son to die for our sins, but neither God nor Jesus actually lost anything. Basically, the way I see it is Jesus was in heaven, went to earth for a few decades to do an unpleasant, but quick (relative to eternity 30-some years is really quick) job, and then he went back up to heaven. Job done. Easy peasy. Why do people always talk about this like it was such a sacrifice?

Perhaps because, aside from what Jesus' life really was, the metaphorical and mythic meaning of that story hasn't unfolded in a deeper or more real fashion. There were at least three levels to Jesus' parables, +1. And most of the faithful usually don't get past, in my opinion, the first and outermost level. Go figure.

[Qoeleth]

Here is a parable by Eckhart:
A man had a wife. The wife lost her eye in an accident, and was afraid the husband would no longer love her. The husband then gouged out his own eye, to show that he did.

Thus God taking flesh is expressing His love that we may love Him, clothed in his own weakness and suffering.

Remember, God's Son is God. He was not sacrificing another, but His own being.

[jochoa]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

Why do people always talk about this like it was such a sacrifice?

My friend, I pray hard for the wisdom to help describe the tremendous sacrifices of God. Unfortunately, God's sacrifices can only be fully understood, appreciated, honored, and glorified by growing in union with His Spirit.

To grow in union with His Spirit, you must grow in understanding of His purpose, by becoming one with His mindset, and by becoming one with His will.

Therefore, in order to know God and His Sacrifices, consider His perspective by doing a few things:
1. Want everyone to be able to experience happiness (contentment to intense joy) without ever losing any peace (freedom from disturbance).
2. Set out to master being unconditionally patient and kind so that your relationships and self may experience happiness without losing any peace. I recommend the first 10 days of the Love Dare to begin your journey to mastery.
3. Find the solution to the following problem:
Given ALL the following:
-You, as a thinking, feeling, acting, living being exist in solitude (Hint: It is best to think of yourself existing as a single-celled being, similar to how you first came to be).
-There is nothing else in existence.
-The only method to create something, living or non-living, is to first think of it in full detail.
-You want to experience limitless happiness without ever losing peace.
How do you make that happen? I recommend first thinking about what are the requirements and trying to figure out how to make those happen individually.

[Poseidon]

Originally Posted by PatriceA

Do you have children? No parent wants to see their child treated the way Jesus was treated, even if the parent knows the outcome. To watch your child go through the sacrifices Jesus had to make for people that rejected him, continue to reject him, that is the greatest sacrifice a parent can make.

But it was just the temporary body that was being destroyed. Jesus' body was mistreated, but it only lasted a few hours. I'm not saying that anyone would want to see their children mistreated, but if you know that in the end everything will be fine and you'll be reunited in heaven soon, I wouldn't think it would be that bad.

[Poseidon]

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

Here is a parable by Eckhart:
A man had a wife. The wife lost her eye in an accident, and was afraid the husband would no longer love her. The husband then gouged out his own eye, to show that he did.

Thus God taking flesh is expressing His love that we may love Him, clothed in his own weakness and suffering.

Remember, God's Son is God. He was not sacrificing another, but His own being.

But my point is that there was really no sacrifice. A sacrifice implies that you give something up, and at the end of the day neither God nor Jesus had anything less than they had before. It was simply a sacrifice of a temporarily assumed body.

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

I've never understood why this was always considered such a sacrifice. God sent his son to die for our sins,...

Not exactly. God came here Himself, took on human life, it was living for us that was the sacrifice. He also suffered for us, in ways we cannot imagine. It isn't the nails and torture of that kind of horrible death, He took ALL our sin upon Himself, He knew our sin. Have you ever let yourself know you own sin? Known when you did something awful? Felt -- well, just that terrible feeling of knowing you hurt someone?

He took it all. As a human being. Yours, too.

But, even if you stick with the dying only. I want you to think about what it is to be crucified, if you know. I want you to imagine yourself offerring to go through it when you do not have to because you are, after all, the most powerful being in the Universe, and deciding to go ahead and do it for the benefit of the people who are killing you.

We haven't got a clue how great His Sacrifice is. We don't deserve to be the dirt under His feet.

[Sair]

Originally Posted by Gorgias

Tell ya what... give up your life for someone -- someone who isn't even asking for or appreciative of your actions -- and in the afterlife, we'll talk about whether it was "easy peasy", or even if it wasn't "such a sacrifice"...

In the context of the OP's question, this still doesn't work. For any one of us, giving up our bodily integrity, our dignity and our life without knowing that there would be anything to show for it, nor anything to come after it, would be a real sacrifice, on a massive scale. For a being who was purportedly the son of god, who knew that he would be resurrected in a few days, this is most definitely not a comparable sacrifice. Yes, obviously there would be a great deal of pain and suffering involved - but the important thing is that our attitude towards pain and suffering is greatly affected by circumstance. Pain in one context - for example, childbirth - is psychologically far more acceptable than similar pain in a more negative context - such as ovarian cancer.

And this doesn't even touch on the true perversity of the idea of vicarious atonement - and for what? For a state of affairs that the God of Classical Theism himself brought about?

[Gorgias]

Originally Posted by Sair

In the context of the OP's question, this still doesn't work. For any one of us, giving up our bodily integrity, our dignity and our life without knowing that there would be anything to show for it, nor anything to come after it, would be a real sacrifice, on a massive scale. For a being who was purportedly the son of god, who knew that he would be resurrected in a few days, this is most definitely not a comparable sacrifice.

Well, your argument has some force, outside the realm of faith. As Christians, we do know that we will be resurrected, and so your notion of "incomparable sacrifice" doesn't hold. Our knowledge comes not from being the Son of God, but from the self-revelation of God that tells us that we are adopted sons and daughters of God.

We could get into a really deep theological discussion of what Jesus knew, and how he knew it, and maybe even when he knew it, but that might quickly get out of hand. In short, my response is that our knowledge -- through faith -- is on a par with what Jesus knew (at least, from an ontological perspective).

And this doesn't even touch on the true perversity of the idea of vicarious atonement - and for what? For a state of affairs that the God of Classical Theism himself brought about?

LOL ... God brought about sin? Hmm... I don't think there are reasonable Christians out there who would agree with you...! In any case, I'm not sure that "vicarious atonement" is what Catholicism teaches -- if by that you mean penal substitution as commanded by God the Father, so your 'perversity' assertion doesn't really hold, either...!

[Tantum ergo]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

But it was just the temporary body that was being destroyed. Jesus' body was mistreated, but it only lasted a few hours. I'm not saying that anyone would want to see their children mistreated, but if you know that in the end everything will be fine and you'll be reunited in heaven soon, I wouldn't think it would be that bad.

Um, Jesus didn't have a TEMPORARY body, you know? He has that same body right now. Glorified, but not completely different. He didn't suffer with a 'temporary' body and then throw it away to be pure Spirit.

And 'it only lasted a few hours"?

Tell you what. When you become God (just try to even imagine it --you are all powerful, all knowing, all good), you go ahead and just for a few measly years tie yourself to a 'human body' which you will then KEEP forever. Be human, subject to human ills. . .you, the one who MADE the UNIVERSE, let yourself become a human and subject yourself to first your parents and then to your elders, your boss, etc. Then suffer and die --not for yourself. Not even for good people. Suffer and die for people who have lied, cheated, stolen, killed, tortured, raped. . .then go down to purgatory and one-on-one to every soul there and proclaim what you have done--then come back on earth for 40 days and try to get the people who let you down know that you're still going to help them --and then go back to Heaven, and WAIT and watch those people and see how FEW of them listen or care about what you have done for them,

And then tell me how 'easy' it was for you to do.

As for the 'pain?" Crucifixion is no fun thing. We all overestimate our capacity to handle physical pain until we actually suffer it. And we're just 'regular' humans. Imagine if you have NEVER in a thousand bajillion lifetimes of experience ever suffered physical pain --and then you not only suffer it, you suffer an extreme amount of it --and all for people who aren't even GRATEFUL.

Lord Jesus, forgive our ingratitude and our selfishness.

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

Um, Jesus didn't have a TEMPORARY body, you know? He has that same body right now. Glorified, but not completely different. He didn't suffer with a 'temporary' body and then throw it away to be pure Spirit.

And 'it only lasted a few hours"?

Tell you what. When you become God (just try to even imagine it --you are all powerful, all knowing, all good), you go ahead and just for a few measly years tie yourself to a 'human body' which you will then KEEP forever. Be human, subject to human ills. . .you, the one who MADE the UNIVERSE, let yourself become a human and subject yourself to first your parents and then to your elders, your boss, etc. Then suffer and die --not for yourself. Not even for good people. Suffer and die for people who have lied, cheated, stolen, killed, tortured, raped. . .then go down to purgatory and one-on-one to every soul there and proclaim what you have done--then come back on earth for 40 days and try to get the people who let you down know that you're still going to help them --and then go back to Heaven, and WAIT and watch those people and see how FEW of them listen or care about what you have done for them,

And then tell me how 'easy' it was for you to do.

As for the 'pain?" Crucifixion is no fun thing. We all overestimate our capacity to handle physical pain until we actually suffer it. And we're just 'regular' humans. Imagine if you have NEVER in a thousand bajillion lifetimes of experience ever suffered physical pain --and then you not only suffer it, you suffer an extreme amount of it --and all for people who aren't even GRATEFUL.

Lord Jesus, forgive our ingratitude and our selfishness.

It is easy to criticise but to empathise is a far different proposition...

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by Sair

In the context of the OP's question, this still doesn't work. For any one of us, giving up our bodily integrity, our dignity and our life without knowing that there would be anything to show for it, nor anything to come after it, would be a real sacrifice, on a massive scale. For a being who was purportedly the son of god, who knew that he would be resurrected in a few days, this is most definitely not a comparable sacrifice.

You are overlooking the fact that Jesus was a man in all things except sin. He was not omniscient while He was on earth and must have been prey to doubts like everyone else. Is that surprising when you have been crucified? When you are in agony and faced with imminent death you must inevitably be tempted to believe you have been misguided and only imagine you have been sent by God. It is easy to belittle His sacrifice but to do something comparable is an entirely different proposition. It is also easy to criticise and destroy but to appreciate and create takes far more insight and understanding. Let those who judge and condemn judge and condemn themselves first...

And this doesn't even touch on the true perversity of the idea of vicarious atonement - and for what? For a state of affairs that the God of Classical Theism himself brought about?

Jesus was not compelled to die as a scapegoat at the command of the Father: His death was not imposed on him against His will but resulted from His own free decision. The apparent subordination of Jesus to the Father is due to the relation of His human to divine nature.

He allowed Himself to be executed unjustly because He knew someone had to break out of the vicious spiral of evil in which men react to hatred with hatred and to violence with violence. He refused to be contaminated by the vices of others and in spite of severe provocation He remained true to his principles of love and forgiveness. He did not compromise Himself in any way but retained His self-control in the face of injustice, suffering and death. Neither fear nor doubt nor pride made him abandon His self-appointed task of liberating us from our weakness and blindness. To forgive one's executioners is undeniable proof of self-mastery.

The purpose of His mission was to enable us to escape not from pain and death but from selfishness and cowardice. He became a man in order to uplift humanity without interfering with our freedom. Our individual guilt cannot be erased but our addiction to ourselves can be cured by His example. His execution was caused by a combination of human vices and weaknesses: pride, ignorance, cruelty, callousness, selfishness, apathy, hypocrisy, self-righteousness and the lust for power. He provided the model on which we can base our lives and discover true freedom through unselfish love.

He apparently failed in His mission yet He has changed the history of mankind because His example and teaching are the basis of modern civilisation with its principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. He infused His vitality into our moribund race without infringing divine justice or human freedom by a simple but sublime solution: by intervening from within as a man. We are still subject to temptation, responsible for our decisions and accountable for our conduct but we are no longer trapped in the prison erected by our egoism and isolation from others. We can choose to be spiritually united to everyone if we follow His example and believe in the power of unselfish love.