I Believe in One God

[Marybeloved]

I see you've edited your post. My first line in my post above was in response to what you had said to me directing me to refer to your previous posts and to "argue with God" and not with you.... Had to explain that so people don't wonder why I started with a line that is somewhat harsh asking you why you conflate personal interpretations of scripture with God's own teaching/proclamations.

[mercytruth]

I have no desire to continue these discussions with any of you who will ignore the scriptures. If the Nicene Council had focused on the word of God, and not men's opinions and philosphical rationalizations we would not have a divided and unsanctified church to this day.

Jesus Christ prayed, "Sanctified them by thy truth, for thy word is truth". (John17:17)

At least the Rabbis would discuss alternate understandings of holy scriptures without calling each other heretics. We could learn something from our elder brothers of the Abrahamic faith.

May God have mercy on our stubborn souls, and may each of us, including myself, learn that our opinions are a rival to God and to His Word.

[Marybeloved]

Originally Posted by mercytruth

I have already quoted several early church fathers, my 'presumptions' are not presumptions they are the teachings of several early church fathers. None of you will answer the question that I have been asking. Was it necessary for our Lord Jesus Christ to be perfected through temptations and sufferings in order for him to become the Great High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek?

You have already been answered. Christ took on our temptations and sufferings, our plight, so that he could represent us. Just like if you joined a tribe to be its leader you would have to go through their rights of passage even if you did not need to. Our lord took on our "rights of passage" which is to be tempted and to triumph, to suffer and to overcome. Not because he himself lacked and needed perfection but because that is OUR route. He went through it voluntarily for love of us, not because he HAD to. Remember, he said that no-one takes his life from him but he himself lays it down and takes it up again. So, No- Christ did not "need" to be perfected through temptations and suffering, but he took it upon himself freely for love of us and his Father.

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by mercytruth

Rinnie,

You are beggining to offend me by continuing to imply that I said our Lord Jesus Christ sinned.

I am repeating the word of holy scriptures. In all ways he was tempted like us, yet without sin(ning).

Oh mercy please forgive me, I would never do that.

Now I am a little confused then, I thought you were saying he was tempted to sin. Mercy help me here, what it it then we are disagreeing on?

[Marybeloved]

Originally Posted by mercytruth

I have no desire to continue these discussions with any of you who will ignore the scriptures. If the Nicene Council had focused on the word of God, and not men's opinions and philosphical rationalizations we would not have a divided and unsanctified church to this day.

Jesus Christ prayed, "Sanctified them by thy truth, for thy word is truth". (John17:17)

At least the Rabbis would discuss alternate understandings of holy scriptures without calling each other heretics. We could learn something from our elder brothers of the Abrahamic faith.

May God have mercy on our stubborn souls, and may each of us, including myself, learn that our opinions are a rival to God and to His Word.

Clearly the real issue here is a conviction in private interpretations over and above that of divinely established authority. Why do you yourself ignore scripture when it says of Christ's chosen leaders that: He who hears you hears me? Even st. Peter warns against those who insist on interpreting sacred writings privately, to their own destruction. Christ gave us a church and authority before he gave us the writings of the Apostles. It seems you still believe in the protestant error of rejecting God's own chosen method of teaching and guidance (The Church) even though you've become Catholic. I really advise you to drop all discussions of particular doctrines and explore the one of the church's teaching authority. You can always find a father or saint who supported error. You can always make scripture conform to your own understanding. That's why Christ gave us the church as the only true divinely protected interpreter of God's truths. I suggest you trust God's guided authorities and his promised guidance over them and not yourself or any one else who teaches contrary to the church.

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by mercytruth

Rinne,

I do see what you are saying, and it makes perfect sense as long as we presume that our Lord Jesus Christ never had any desire to sin. Yet, I would not say these things if there were not early church fathers who say he was tempted in every way as ourselves.

God's peace be with you.

Here is where I am not understanding what you were saying Mercy. See we don't presume that our Lord Jesus never had a desire to sin, we know this.

See I think where the trouble came in is when you read that the Church Fathers said he was tempted in every way as ourselves. but you missed the part EXCEPT WITHOUT sin.

Unless I misunderstood this completely. Then please accept my apology.

[mercytruth]

Originally Posted by Marybeloved

Clearly the real issue here is a conviction in private interpretations as over and above that of divinely established authority. Why do you yourself ignore scripture when it says of Christ's chosen leaders that he who hears you hears me? Even st. Peter warns against those who insist on interpreting sacred writings privately, to their own destruction. Christ gave us a church and authority before he gave us the writings of the Apostles. It seems you still believe in the protestant error of rejecting God's own chosen method of teaching and guidance even though you've become Catholic. I really advise you to drop all discussions of particular doctrine and explore the one of the church's teaching authority. You can always find a father or saint who supported error. You can always make scripture conform to your own understanding. That's why Christ gave us the church the only true divinely protected interpreter of God's truths. I suggest you trust God's guided authorities and his promised guidance over them and not yourself or any one else who teaches contrary to the church.

I fail to see how anything that has divided the primitive church of God that was sanctified by the truth of God's word can have eternal spiritual value, especially when few understand it.

The Protestants have something to offer, they who value God's word are pleasing to God. The Catholic church in America probably would not have bible studies today, if it was not for the influence of Bible adherant Protestants. I hate spiritual arrogance and pride. I think I should focus on another sort of denial, by reading St.John of the Cross.,,, at least, this saint of the Catholic church, I can understand.

God's peace now and forever.

[mercytruth]

Originally Posted by rinnie

Here is where I am not understanding what you were saying Mercy. See we don't presume that our Lord Jesus never had a desire to sin, we know this.

See I think where the trouble came in is when you read that the Church Fathers said he was tempted in every way as ourselves. but you missed the part EXCEPT WITHOUT sin.

Unless I misunderstood this completely. Then please accept my apology.

Tempted in every way as ourselves, yet without ever sinning is how I read the early church fathers and the aforemention scripture. Being tempted in every way, is not sin. It is giving into the temptation of any, or every sort of sin is what brings one to the act, attitude, or speech of sinning.

Your apologies are accepted, but like I said to Marybeloved, it is time for me to retreat to the reflections and writings of St.John of the Cross. He understood well.

God's peace to you.

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by mercytruth

Marybeloved,

My understanding of scripture is that God grants all of us a spotless soul within our fallen Adamic physical nature. From the beginning, our physical nature is selfish, and self-seeking. This fallen Adamic nature opposes the light of our conscience that is implanted in our spotless soul given at conception. This light is dimmed by our choices to be selfish and self-seeking. Eventually, our souls spiritually die when we continue the course of choosing to sin.

I believe that the spotless soul of Jesus Christ was committed at all times to the will of God his Father, from birth to death on the cross.

I believe his physical nature tempted his soul to be otherwise, but His spotless soul never gave into temptations from his physical nature. In this manner, he empathizes with the weaknesses of our own physical nature.

Now, some say, that personality is inherited from one's biological ancestry. Within the human personality there is a wide range of human emotions, dispositions, and inclinations.

Whatever Jesus Christ inherited from his virgin mother Mary, and she from her ancestry, Jesus Christ was so inclined. This is how I understand the humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God's peace be with you.

See Mercy here is something I don't understand. What do you mean by his physical nature tempted his soul to be otherwise?

This is where I believe we have the big disagreement. If his physical nature tempted his soul to be otherwise he would have venial sin, would he not?

[mercytruth]

Originally Posted by rinnie

See Mercy here is something I don't understand. What do you mean by his physical nature tempted his soul to be otherwise?

This is where I believe we have the big disagreement. If his physical nature tempted his soul to be otherwise he would have venial sin, would he not?

For you, Rinnie I will reply from my understanding of holy scriptures. I may be completely wrong.

When Paul says, 'the good that I would, I do not, and the evil that I would not, that I do. Who shall deliver me from this body of death?" He is telling us of the struggle between our physical fallen genetic Adamic nature, and our inner nature created in the image of God.

This tells me that our physical nature is selfish and self-seeking and overpowers the good intentions of our soul. Paul later explains that Jesus Christ condemned sin in the flesh, in order for the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who no longer walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit (of Christ, I presume).

So, no, this would not be a venial sin for Jesus Christ to be tempted by sin, as long as he did not follow through or dwell on such temptations.

Really, I question whether I should continue, I have no authority to explain, and I do not want to be a source of division (eventhough it is unlikely anyone will be persuaded by my convictions, this is strictly for your understanding of where I am coming from).

Now let us go forth in God's peace.

[rinnie]

[quote=mercytruth;9240034]If one were to read the entire epitstle to the Hebrews, one will understand (hopefully) of that which is at stake here.

Our Lord Jesus Christ had to become perfect through temptation like ours, and through suffering in order to be made our High Priest forever, according to the order of Melchisedek. I will attempt to break down this understanding of the High Priesthood that our Lord Jesus Christ has entered into.

First, the qualifications of a high priest under the law of the Levitical priesthood:

For every high priest taken from among men, is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins: Who can have compassion on them that are ignorant and that err: because he himself also is compassed with infirmity. And therefore he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins .Neither doth any man take the honour to himself, but he that is called by God, as Aaron was.[(Hebrews 5:1-4).

Now here is the description of the High Priesthood of our Lord.

The compassion the Levitical High Priest had for his own people was because he himself struggled with the same 'infirmities, ' "weaknesses" toward sin, (and in fact did sin), even as the people of Israel sinned.

Therefore, it was necessary for our Lord Jesus Christ to struggle with the same infirmities or weaknesses as us, in order to have compassion on us, all the while, never sinning. (unlike the Levitical high priest).

This struggle with weaknesses toward sin, and with suffering is what perfected our Lord Jesus Christ in order to be made a high priest forever according to the order of Melchisedek: He would not have been made a high priest forever according to the order of Melchisedek unless he had been perfected through temptation and suffering:

For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever. (Hebrews 7:26-28)

And, In the days of his flesh, Jesus[a] offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
(Hebrews 5:7-10)

The epistle to the Hebrews clearly explains that our Lord Jesus Christ had to be pefected through temptations like our own, and through sufferings in order to become a high priest forever.


God of God knew obedience. But now he experienced it as Son of God in the flesh.

God was not made perfect in his temptations, Jesus was God when he became flesh. He was made perfect when he was the Son of God made man.

But what this scripture is saying is he was not only God made man, but when his humanity was tested he showed perfection on a human level also. THe suffering part, the physical pain.

Where you and I disagree is I don't see how Jesus could have been tempted on a human level as we are.

This is what we are pretty much disagreeing on I believe.

Here is why, you seem to believe the Jesus had the human nature that is inclined to sin.

When Adam came into the world he Did NOT have the human nature that was inclined to sin. But by his sin we are inclined to sin. We have a sinful nature.

When we are born before our baptsim we are born into a state of sin. We call this original sin, It is our baptism that wiped that out.

But Jesus was not born into original sin. That is why we cannot agree on the temptations of the Sinless nature of Christ and the sinfull nature of us.

That is why he filled the Priesthood. The order of Melchizek still had a sinful nature. That is why Jesus Surpassed it.

The other Priests could not do it, because they had sin of thier own.

So where we are going to have to disagree is this. Adam and Eve never had a sinful nature either. They were not born with original sin. They had free will to obey God or not to.

Jesus did not have a sinful nature, and he chose to be completely obedient as God made human to show us that he can relate to us in a human way.. But there is no way that in the temptations he could be tempted EXACTLY like us, because he did not have the inclination of sin as we do.

If he did he would not be the 2nd Adam and be able to take away the Sin which is original sin that Adam gave us.

To make it more clear God has no sin in him. Ever! Jesus was God making himself Man, while he suffered as Man, on every single level. physical that is, meaning pain, feelings of suffering, but where we differ is the Sin. He could never be inclined to sin as we are. because he had no sinful nature as we do.

On the same note, we as humans cannot say that we are tempted by sin, and not feel inclined to sin. It is in our nature. We can't help it. We can choose to not react on it, but we cannot help what we feel.

Like lets say you or I look at the HUNK of a Man! Just as a Man can have lust so can we. But when we look at , for one second we cannot deny the sinful thought that comes into our minds. For me its big shoulders on a man, I can't help it, I can control how I act on it But for a second. God forgive me, I have thoughts

[rinnie]

Mercy sorry I had to take a little out of what you wrote to fit my response.

[Marybeloved]

Originally Posted by mercytruth

I fail to see how anything that has divided the primitive church of God that was sanctified by the truth of God's word can have eternal spiritual value, especially when few understand it.

The Protestants have something to offer, they who value God's word are pleasing to God. The Catholic church in America probably would not have bible studies today, if it was not for the influence of Bible adherant Protestants. I hate spiritual arrogance and pride. I think I should focus on another sort of denial, by reading St.John of the Cross.,,, at least, this saint of the Catholic church, I can understand.

God's peace now and forever.

You really think that telling you the truth about the teaching of the Church is pride and arrogance?

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by mercytruth

For you, Rinnie I will reply from my understanding of holy scriptures. I may be completely wrong.

When Paul says, 'the good that I would, I do not, and the evil that I would not, that I do. Who shall deliver me from this body of death?" He is telling us of the struggle between our physical fallen genetic Adamic nature, and our inner nature created in the image of God.

This tells me that our physical nature is selfish and self-seeking and overpowers the good intentions of our soul. Paul later explains that Jesus Christ condemned sin in the flesh, in order for the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who no longer walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit (of Christ, I presume).

So, no, this would not be a venial sin for Jesus Christ to be tempted by sin, as long as he did not follow through or dwell on such temptations.

Really, I question whether I should continue, I have no authority to explain, and I do not want to be a source of division (eventhough it is unlikely anyone will be persuaded by my convictions, this is strictly for your understanding of where I am coming from).

Now let us go forth in God's peace.

Oh Mercy please don't go, And I beg everyone here to be kind, Be Christlike.

Trust me Mercy, there are so many arguments I have had, and came on short. And by that misunderstanding I found the true understanding.

And no one here has authority Sweatheart. We are going by what the Church teaches, or at least what we understand what the Church teaches.

But please don't feel we are trying to hurt or attack you. At least on my part I am here to try to help you the best I can.

Now back to your question, Here is why I believe it would be venial. Because venial is the thought or inclination as I explained.

See that is the only way Jesus was Perfect and we were not. He never had any inclination to sin ever.

Now think about this, do you know ANYONE, including the Pope that can say they never had a inclination to give in to sin ever?

See what St Paul is saying by condemning sin in the flesh, which means taking it away, by Jesus never having a single sinful though he beat sin completely.

That is why by dying for Our sin, him being perfect in every single way, is our Salvation.

That is why we now have baptism. One baptism for the forgiveness of sin. Thats original sin. Remember no Priest could get rid of it for us. How Jesus was the perfect sacrafice.

Here is more proof Jesus was perfect even before he died, he was forgiving sin before he died. Even before he was tempted.

Back to St Paul, he knew he had sins, St Peter did. We all did. Look at the Pope he goes to confession every day.

By by his death and res. he set us free. Now not only do we have Baptism for original sin, we have confession for actual sins. The ones we do now. In confession he passed on the Power to the Priest to forgive sin in his name.

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by Marybeloved

You really think that telling you the truth about the teaching of the Church is pride and arrogance?

I think Mary when we can all come on a little strong at times. And sometimes its taken as an attack then what we mean it to be as a true loving attempt to help gain an understanding of Church teaching.