Catholic bishops say GOP budget proposal fails moral test

[MillTownCath]

I think it's immoral that, instead of making millionaires and billionaires and their corporations actually pay their taxes by closing loop holes, we're relying on cutting programs for the least of these.

The poor didn't get us into this mess, but we certainly like to blame them as if they took up the largest portion of the budget.

'A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.' - MLK

'A society will be judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members'(which, yes, includes the unborn) - Pope JPII




Oh yeah, and we're still providing oil companies with billions of tax dollars even though they're extremely profitable? But yeah, they probably deserve it more than children who don't have healthcare.

[JimG]

Originally Posted by MillTownCath

I think it's immoral that, instead of making millionaires and billionaires and their corporations actually pay their taxes by closing loop holes, we're relying on cutting programs for the least of these.

The poor didn't get us into this mess, but we certainly like to blame them as if they took up the largest portion of the budget.

'A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.' - MLK

'A society will be judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members'(which, yes, includes the unborn) - Pope JPII




Oh yeah, and we're still providing oil companies with billions of tax dollars even though they're extremely profitable? But yeah, they probably deserve it more than children who don't have healthcare.

Just as a matter of information, most of the supposed tax benefits accruing to oil companies do not go to the big major oil companies. They go to the independent producers and drillers, who, unlike, the majors, drill for oil in the U.S., not in foreign countries or international waters. More information here.

[MJE]

The following quote is from a civil rights activist who has done incredible work for persons/families/neighborhoods in deep poverty for 30 years. His research shows the consequences, unintended, of federal dollars/programs. Stop assuming that federal programs and advocates are helping those most in need. Do the research.

“Prior to the 1960s, the black community, even though we had no political rights, didn’t have voting rights, were not represented in local government and some of us being lynched everyday. Even in the presence of all those economic and social injustices, the black marriage rate in 1930 to 1940 was higher than in the white community. That 82 percent of all black families had a man and a woman raising children. The out-of-wedlock birth was something like 12 or 15 percent and that was considered a scandal. So, but what happened in 1960 when government intervened with the poverty programs a major paradigm shift occurred. And that is: government began to intervene and 80 percent of the money that it invested went not to institutions and communities but to a service industry. And so 82 percent or 80 percent of the money that government spent on helping poor people does not go to poor people but to professional service providers. They ask not which problems are solvable, but which problems are fundable this year, and as a consequence of this we had the poverty programs. We provided perverse incentives for maintaining people in poverty. So that if you are running an agency to serve poor people,
you get paid for the number of people you purportedly serve not how many problems you solve. Also welfare policy made a major shift and contributed to the decimation of the family, as well, because welfare policy said if you drop out of school, don’t work, have babies the government will pay you. And the more children you have the more we’ll pay you. Even the public housing policies mitigated against healthy families. For instance, if you and I had an increase in salary our rent or mortgage payment doesn’t go up, but if you are a resident in public housing your income is, your rent is indexed to your income so that’s a disincentive for families to form. So there, it was a perfect storm of government policies, as well as welfare policies. Where now 30 percent of black families have a man and a woman raising children and it is true not only for the black community but for other groups as well. So obviously government has injured with the helping hand.”
Robert L. Woodson founder & president of Center for Neighborhood Enterprise
http://www.talkzone.com/shows/199/woodson.html
http://www.povertycure.org/voices/robert-woodson
http://www.cneonline.org/pages/homepage

[Swiss Guy]

Originally Posted by _Abyssinia

The mainstream media left that out?

YEAH!

[Scott_Lafrance]

Originally Posted by MillTownCath

I think it's immoral that, instead of making millionaires and billionaires and their corporations actually pay their taxes by closing loop holes, we're relying on cutting programs for the least of these.

The poor didn't get us into this mess, but we certainly like to blame them as if they took up the largest portion of the budget.

'A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.' - MLK

'A society will be judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members'(which, yes, includes the unborn) - Pope JPII




Oh yeah, and we're still providing oil companies with billions of tax dollars even though they're extremely profitable? But yeah, they probably deserve it more than children who don't have healthcare.

I hope that God doesn't judge us based on how addicted to federal entitlement money people have become.

[_Abyssinia]

EWTN: World Over Live: Rep Paul Ryan on Morality of the Federal Budget with Raymond Arroyo

On a World Over with Raymond Arroyo special, Congressman Paul Ryan discusses the morality of the federal budget and addresses the latest concerns of the U.S. bishops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YuO_fuj6nM

[Ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by SVP

The USCCB says the GOP budget fails moral test.

The Democrats haven't proposed or passed a budget in 3 years; that fails their moral and sworn duty to the country.
Don't say it's all the GOP's fault. The last budget Obama proposed didn't win any votes from his own party!

Any budget will be a compromise. Any budget will have "moral" problems from some angle, but to properly run the country we need a budget. Spending without a budget is a recipe for fiscal disaster, in this case a fiscal disaster that may well be too far along!

The USCCB said no such thing. Two bishops seem to have complained about:
1. Cuts to food stamp program. Looks like the 'cuts" are a reduction from an increase of 12% to an increase of 8%, and a tightening of eligibility requirements. Wonder if those two bishops even knew that, or whether they just heard a media report about it.
2. Elimination of $1,000/child refundable tax credit for children of illegals. Actually, that's a gift of $1,000 per child to each illegal alien, because illegals aren't supposed to be working here anyway and presumably aren't paying taxes. But they can get a check for $1,000 per child anyway. Again, one wonders what those two bishops really knew about it.

[MillTownCath]

Originally Posted by JimG

Just as a matter of information, most of the supposed tax benefits accruing to oil companies do not go to the big major oil companies. They go to the independent producers and drillers, who, unlike, the majors, drill for oil in the U.S., not in foreign countries or international waters. More information here.

Still, not sure why they deserve hard earned tax dollars. Does it improve the common good?

[Mickey Finn]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

From the article:

"That same day, some 60 Catholic social justice leaders, theologians and clergy also released a statement saying that "this budget is morally indefensible and betrays Catholic principles of solidarity, just taxation and a commitment to the common good."

Tuesday's statement from the bishops came the same day as Bishop Stephen E. Blaire of Stockton, Calif., called a proposed cut in benefits for children of immigrants "unjust and wrong." Blaire, chairman of the bishops' Committee on Domestic Justice and Human Development, also decried any cuts in food stamps while preserving federal subsidies for industrial farming enterprises."

So, 60 Catholic "social justice leaders, theologians and clergy" say it's morally indefinsible. You could probably find twice as many of them who will say abortion and gay marriage are okay. This tells us nothing.

Then the statement from the "bishops"....seemingly just one bishop in reality, called two particular things unjust, one of which was conditional.

Someday it will be wonderful if the USCCB really speaks for the bishops in unison. Right now, it sure doesn't, and most definitely one bishop doesn't.

I was personally proud of my own bishop who discouraged contributions to the USCCB "Campaign for Human Development", of whom this Bishop Blaire seems to be the chairman, encouraging, instead, contributions to genuine Catholic charities.

A fraud by USA Today. Just one more fraud.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...?storyid=14068

Rep. Paul Ryan has dismissed the United State Conference of Catholic Bishops’ recent criticism of the House budget plan, of which he was the chief architect.

“These are not all the Catholic bishops, and we just respectfully disagree,” he said.

Don Clemmer, assistant director of media relations for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, responded that “bishops who chair USCCB committees are elected by their fellow bishops to represent all of the US bishops on key issues at the national level.”

“The letters on the budget were written by bishops serving in this capacity,” Clemmer added.

[Mickey Finn]

Originally Posted by Ender

Perhaps I'm not looking in the right place but I can't find the letter this article refers to ... at least I can't find one that states the GOP measure "fails to meet these moral criteria." I did find the letter from bishops Blaire and Pates on Tuesday, March 6, which is surely one of the letters to which the article refers but it makes no such charge.

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-acti...2012-03-06.pdf

There are a number of things to take away from the USAToday article, not least of which is the attempt to put the GOP budget proposal in the same light as the HHS mandate. It shouldn't (but obviously does) need to be pointed out that letters emanating from the USCCB do not constitute the position of "the bishops." They generally are nothing more than the opinions of individuals and are no more binding on Catholic consciences than letters from the RNC or DNC. Nor indeed would the political opinions of "the bishops" be binding inasmuch as the Church has no doctrine that compels Catholics either to support or oppose the Ryan budget (or any other political proposal).

The Democrats in general and the Obama administration in particular are in trouble with Catholics now especially because of the bishops' moral stance against the HHS mandate. Making the charge that the GOP budget is morally deficient is a tactic to combat this rising problem. I'm sure it will in many ways be effective given the individual's inclination to justify his political opinions. There will be a great many people who make no distinction between a political judgment about the effectiveness of a budget plan and a moral judgement about the implications of a federal mandate.

Ender

Ender. Both the Ryan budget, and HHS, are in conflict with our Catholic beliefs. So, we must, as Catholics, support neither.

ATB

[Scott_Lafrance]

Originally Posted by Mickey Finn

Ender. Both the Ryan budget, and HHS, are in conflict with our Catholic beliefs. So, we must, as Catholics, support neither.

ATB

What, specifically, in the Ryan budget is in conflict with Catholic doctrine that forbids me from supporting it?

[markomalley]

Originally Posted by Mickey Finn

“These are not all the Catholic bishops, and we just respectfully disagree,” he said.

Don Clemmer, assistant director of media relations for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, responded that “bishops who chair USCCB committees are elected by their fellow bishops to represent all of the US bishops on key issues at the national level.”

“The letters on the budget were written by bishops serving in this capacity,” Clemmer added.

Well, as I posted above in post #75, the statements from those individual bishops do not reflect Magisterial positions. Ref: Norms from Motu Proprio Apostolos Suos. Since that is the case, Catholics are not bound to believe them with divine and Catholic faith, nor are they required to regard them with religious submission of the intellect and will. In other words, they are opinions. And, well, you know what they say about opinions.

Art. 2. – No body of the Episcopal Conference, outside of the plenary assembly, has the power to carry out acts of authentic magisterium. The Episcopal Conference cannot grant such power to its Commissions or other bodies set up by it.

Seems Rep Ryan knows a little bit more about Catholic teaching than Mr. Clemmer.

[Mickey Finn]

Originally Posted by markomalley

Well, as I posted above in post #75, the statements from those individual bishops do not reflect Magisterial positions. Ref: Norms from Motu Proprio Apostolos Suos. Since that is the case, Catholics are not bound to believe them with divine and Catholic faith, nor are they required to regard them with religious submission of the intellect and will. In other words, they are opinions. And, well, you know what they say about opinions.

Art. 2. – No body of the Episcopal Conference, outside of the plenary assembly, has the power to carry out acts of authentic magisterium. The Episcopal Conference cannot grant such power to its Commissions or other bodies set up by it.

Seems Rep Ryan knows a little bit more about Catholic teaching than Mr. Clemmer.

I think I'll take the guidance of the Bishops.

[rlg94086]

Originally Posted by Mickey Finn

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...?storyid=14068

Rep. Paul Ryan has dismissed the United State Conference of Catholic Bishops’ recent criticism of the House budget plan, of which he was the chief architect.

“These are not all the Catholic bishops, and we just respectfully disagree,” he said.

Don Clemmer, assistant director of media relations for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, responded that “bishops who chair USCCB committees are elected by their fellow bishops to represent all of the US bishops on key issues at the national level.”

“The letters on the budget were written by bishops serving in this capacity,” Clemmer added.

With all due respect to the Assistant Director of Media Relations of the USCCB, his statement is only semi-accurate.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=734

10. At the level of particular Churches grouped together by geographic areas (by countries, regions, etc.), the Bishops in charge do not exercise pastoral care jointly with collegial acts equal to those of the College of Bishops.
11. In fact, only the faithful entrusted to the pastoral care of a particular Bishop are required to accept his judgement given in the name of Christ in matters of faith and morals, and to adhere to it with a religious assent of soul.
12. Nonetheless, this territorially based exercise of the episcopal ministry never takes on the collegial nature proper to the actions of the order of Bishops as such, which alone holds the supreme power over the whole Church. In fact, the relationship between individual Bishops and the College of Bishops is quite different from their relationship to the bodies set up for the above-mentioned joint exercise of certain pastoral tasks.
19. This provision is found explicitly in the Code of Canon Law where we read: "A diocesan Bishop in the diocese committed to him possesses all the ordinary, proper and immediate power which is required for the exercise of his pastoral office except for those cases which the law or a decree of the Supreme Pontiff reserves to the supreme authority of the Church or to some other ecclesiastical authority"
20. In other cases "the competence of individual diocesan Bishops remains intact; and neither the Conference nor its president may act in the name of all the Bishops unless each and every Bishop has given his consent".

In other words, the Bishop in the USCCB who is "represent(ing) all of the US bishops on key issues at the national level" doesn't actually have the ability to "act in the name of the Bishops unless each and every Bishop has given his consent." So, to Representative Ryan's point, have all the Bishops done that?

We certainly should take USCCB documents and letters seriously, but on prudential matters we are allowed to disagree. The budgets offered by our elected representatives are prudential matters. There is nothing immoral about supporting the Ryan budget.

[rlg94086]

Originally Posted by Mickey Finn

I think I'll take the guidance of the Bishops.

As we all do. Which Bishops are you taking guidance from? Your Bishop? The College of Bishops? Those both have teaching authority, but the USCCB does not.