I’m not a Mormon. Here's why...

[Miriam1947]

Originally Posted by Jerusha

Actually, this book, written in 1812 by the Episcopalian Bishop of Utah, debunks the BoA almost as thoroughly as the video. This infomation has been available for a long time.
http://archive.org/details/josephsmithjrast00spala
They really didn't need the actual papyri.
Note that he gave a copy to BYU. I am sure they hid it deep. A local High Church Episcopalian seminary has a copy.

Great read, thank you.

[tarboy]

In a similar fashion, I don't expect a Catholic to lose faith because of "evil popes"
nor will a Muslim because of their history.
Their faith is about how the spirit works through them in their daily lives,
not the sins of historical leaders who were mere mortals

Originally Posted by TexanKnight

If I was a betting man, I would say that yes, they know, but they lead pretty awesome lives and would never upset the apple cart

[TexanKnight]

Originally Posted by tarboy

In a similar fashion, I don't expect a Catholic to lose faith because of "evil popes"
nor will a Muslim because of their history.
Their faith is about how the spirit works through them in their daily lives,
not the sins of historical leaders who were mere mortals

not really similar. If a pope was bad, it does not go to the origin of the Catholic Church. If a Priest was bad, it does not affect the origin of the Catholic Church. Especially considering they do not claim a direct hotline to God.

But the conduct of Joseph Smith, the laws he broke, the cheating he did, etc. go right to the origin of the LDS Church. The conduct of BY, etc. DOES matter because they claim to receive DIRECT revelation from God. So when BY says Adam is our God, then either he is right (getting is straight from God) or he is a liar, or he is a false prophet.

[GaryTaylor]

Fastest growing religion in the US today that church of Joe Smith, Islams doing well also.

[Jerusha]

Originally Posted by GaryTaylor

Fastest growing religion in the US today that church of Joe Smith, Islams doing well also.

By manipulation of statistics, and constant re-definition of who is a Mormon, the LDS Church proclaims itself the fastest-growing church. By other measures, growth is leveling off. Somehow, despite an intensive missionary program, it is just not making headway.

[tarboy]

It sounded like you believe your argument is relevent because smith was much worse than the evil popes? There are protestants who would disagree

I'm no expert but i think you are overstating things.

- outsiders always try to discredit a faith by impinging the character of the leaders
- A pope is as much a leader of the Catholics as the mormon leader of mormons
- both churches believe God is the head of the church, not thier current elected leader on earth.

It is fine to expose true facts about past figures, but don't be a hypocrite when playing that game. It's not only relevant when the 'other guy' does it.

Originally Posted by TexanKnight

not really similar. If a pope was bad, it does not go to the origin of the Catholic Church. If a Priest was bad, it does not affect the origin of the Catholic Church. Especially considering they do not claim a direct hotline to God.

But the conduct of Joseph Smith, the laws he broke, the cheating he did, etc. go right to the origin of the LDS Church. The conduct of BY, etc. DOES matter because they claim to receive DIRECT revelation from God. So when BY says Adam is our God, then either he is right (getting is straight from God) or he is a liar, or he is a false prophet.

[TexanKnight]

Originally Posted by tarboy

It sounded like you believe your argument is relevent because smith was much worse than the evil popes? There are protestants who would disagree

I'm no expert but i think you are overstating things.

- outsiders always try to discredit a faith by impinging the character of the leaders
- A pope is as much a leader of the Catholics as the mormon leader of mormons
- both churches believe God is the head of the church, not thier current elected leader on earth.

It is fine to expose true facts about past figures, but don't be a hypocrite when playing that game. It's not only relevant when the 'other guy' does it.

Nope. You missed my point completely. I am not judging who was worse at all. Insaidmthere is a big difference.

Let me explain

Person 1 claims to be a religious leader who has studied the scriptures.

Person 2 claims to be a religious leader who very often talks to God and receives revelations from God and is God's new prophet.

Person 1 does bad things

Person 2 does bad things.

Who is "worse"?

I submit Person 2 because of the position he claims to himself and the access he has claims to have with God who speaks directly to him and has even appeared to him.

See what I mean?

[RebeccaJ]

Everyone sins.

Smith took it further by claiming his sins were based on revelations from God, given to him by heavenly apparitions. By these claims he directed that others should follow him in his sins, claiming them as being the will of God.

All the signs of a false prophet.

[Stephen168]

Originally Posted by tarboy

It sounded like you believe your argument is relevent because smith was much worse than the evil popes? There are protestants who would disagree

I'm no expert but i think you are overstating things.

- outsiders always try to discredit a faith by impinging the character of the leaders
- A pope is as much a leader of the Catholics as the mormon leader of mormons
- both churches believe God is the head of the church, not thier current elected leader on earth.

It is fine to expose true facts about past figures, but don't be a hypocrite when playing that game. It's not only relevant when the 'other guy' does it.

You are trying to make a case that is common among Mormons; making Popes and Joseph Smith equal; they are not.

Smith was the founder of Mormonism; the truth of Mormonism, relies on the word of Joseph Smith. Just like the truth if Catholicism relies on the word of its founder; Jesus Christ.

Science has shown that Joseph Smith is a liar. Mormonism is based on the word of a liar; the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are not what Joseph Smith claimed them to be.

[truthsave]

for Tarboy:
just for curiosity: are you catholic christian since long time and before you were a mormon and still have mormon way of thinking or a mormon covered under catholic christian denomination so to appear neutral?
I ask you this because your interventions are very strange for a christian and your attitude with Texan Night is obviously critic.
If you are a mormon you shouldn't use a faulse denomination. You can, but you shoudn't for respect to the denomination.

[tarboy]

Why assume I'm defending the mormons just because I question some of the tactics here.

I'm a life long Catholic who drifted and is working to build my faith.
While I have disagreements with some Catholic doctrine, I'm here to strengthen my faith and not tear down anyone else with my doubts. So i do more reading than posting. And when I post, I work hard to keep it positive.

I've seen plenty of facts posted here that discredit smith, but the facts can be presented with charity and without bullying.

[TexanKnight]

Originally Posted by tarboy

Why assume I'm defending the mormons just because I question some of the tactics here.

I'm a life long Catholic who drifted and is working to build my faith.
While I have disagreements with some Catholic doctrine, I'm here to strengthen my faith and not tear down anyone else with my doubts. So i do more reading than posting. And when I post, I work hard to keep it positive.

I've seen plenty of facts posted here that discredit smith, but the facts can be presented with charity and without bullying.

There has been no bullying. If you believe there has, please be specific. Give examples.

I am very strong against the false doctrine. But, I am charitable to the posters. I always tell them to be Blessed or that I am praying for them. I have nothing against the people, they are duped as I was. But I fight with all my strength against the heresy....as we have been instructed to do.

I just find it interesting that you focus on me. I got an email from one of the Mormons here saying that I have been targeted for ignoring or fighting. So, when you focus on me, it raises eyebrows.

Be Blessed.

[truthsave]

Originally Posted by tarboy

Why assume I'm defending the mormons just because I question some of the tactics here.

I'm a life long Catholic who drifted and is working to build my faith.
While I have disagreements with some Catholic doctrine, I'm here to strengthen my faith and not tear down anyone else with my doubts. So i do more reading than posting. And when I post, I work hard to keep it positive.

I've seen plenty of facts posted here that discredit smith, but the facts can be presented with charity and without bullying.

thank you tarboy for having taken time for answer.

I understand your saying, but being politically correct is a form of hipocrisy adopted by our society so that evrybody is intitle rightly to have his own right. Here I guess we should firmly point out the attack based on just willing to believe from the mormons to christianity. For the right to be free to believe what they prefer they permit themselves to do whatever, and I say whatever they want with the name of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary. They alter to their own convenience and to try to justify their beliefs some of the Church Fathers affirmation.
Mormon missionaries are the less respectful person (with JW) for your faith that can ever exist. They knock at your door and you answer them I am Orthodox and they DON'T CARE, they are there to show you are wrong.
We are here to show they are wrong and that their wrongness is based on egoistic willing to be happy with a faulse doctrine instead that strugling withthe truth.
We are here to show their way of appropriating Holy names is deeply blasphematory to most of christians ears and that we have to suffer this in patience.
St. Paul was firm in explaining how we should behave with this kind of people.
I don't care if something is done gently or not. Being firm is not being not kind.

Nowhere in the NT is written you should allow confusion of doctrine.
If we allow this behaviour in the name of being correct we partecipate in the spreading of faulsness.
There are obviously different style in preventing spreading of faulse doctrine and sometimes can get harsh.
But you have to consider that if something is so deeply precious in your heart and somebody attack it with his manipulations and for his own interests which include the interests of his beliefs not in a neutral way but at the point that what you believe become rubbish then I have to say it is difficult not to be emotionally involved.

You would say the same to protect your wife or children if people would tell about them insults of the worst degree.
Since we have to be clear and accept it behond what is politically correct: mormonism is the worst insult to Christianity ever.

[tarboy]

Originally Posted by TexanKnight

There has been no bullying. If you believe there has, please be specific. Give examples.


Be Blessed.

For an example, just look at our exchanges. Here's one

Originally Posted by TexanKnight
LW, do yourself a favor. Posting links to LDS apologetic websites to proove LDS points will never work, nor does it prove anything.

I questioned your insistence that people don't link to their official source material. It seemed unfair and counter productive. It seemed like you were bullying people to just shut up.

You then respond and questioned my motives, which is a form of bullying. My comments stand on their own feet.

[RebeccaJ]

Mormon apologetics sites won't work for arguments here. They do nothing but dissemble, without addressing anything. It isn't about trying to silence Mormons, its about hoping to get from them a rational argument.