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View Poll Results: Would life be worth living if there was no God?
yes 22 30.56%
no 50 69.44%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31  
Old Apr 22, '12, 12:15 am
Bezant Bezant is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

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Originally Posted by Qoeleth View Post
Are you sure? In our day and age, 'optimism' is so deeply drilled into us, it is difficult to step outside of it.
You could say the same about pessimism.
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  #32  
Old Apr 22, '12, 5:48 am
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

There would be No-Life without God.

Life is through God and contingent on God, we live life by the moment by Gods Mercy. Everyone has an expiration appointment, the only questions are when and how.

The ultimate goal is to remain in Communion with God. Thus to seek the Lord and chase when need be. As you realize this, so too see this in everyone.

There is only one purpose to life, how you view it is your state of mind in a given moment.

Prayers are with you!
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
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  #33  
Old Apr 22, '12, 8:13 am
danserr danserr is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

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Originally Posted by atheistgirl View Post
My life does indeed have meaning, purpose and value.

None of which comes from any belief in any gods.

Sarah x
Again, though, the issue is not belief in God.

For example, suppose God exists, then a person's life could have meaning, purpose, and value whether or not they believe in God.

Suppose God did not exist. Then a person's life would not have any meaning, purpose, or value whether they believed God to exist or not.

A person might believe that their life was meaningful without God, but that does not mean that it actually is.

For example, you have suggested that part of the reason you find life worth living is that you will 1. live on through your children and 2. have left a contribution to posterity. Now, this shows a relative meaningfulness to life. Life is meaningful because of your effect on others. But why are their lives meaningful? Presumably for the same reason.

Now, someday human life and the universe will end, if this is true, then the last generation's lives will not be meaningful because it will not have an impact on posterity or live on in their children. But, if not, then no lives were meaningful because the meaningfulness of any individual life was dependent on the lives after it.

For example. A is meaningful because it affects B. B because it affects C, C because it affects D.... and Y's life is meaningful because it affects Z. The the world ends. Z's life did not live on into his children or positively affect posterity because there are no posterity. Therefore (by your two reasons), his life was not meaningful.

But it gets worse. Trace this backwards. Y was not valuable on his own, but only because of his positive effect on Z (which assumes that Z was meaningful. But if Z. was not meaningful, how could Y be? And if not Y, then not X... and so on, until even A was not meaningful.

Or put is slightly differently, without God and immortality (not belief in them, but their actual existence), then the life of everyone comes to the same no matter how they lived. The scientist who worked to better human life and the dictator who worked to destroy it all come to the same. In either case, human life ends and, as one writer put it, remains only a story, and actually not even a story forever and ever.

Some people say that without God we must create our own meaning, but this is precisely the problem. Without God, we might ascribe a meaning to our actions, but this would only show a subjective meaning, not any objective meaning. That means that a person who finds killing innocent people meaningful is no different from a person who finds loving his family meaningful. Neither action is more objectively meaningful than another; rather, both actions are meaningful (or "true") for the people who do them. In both cases they create their own meaning, and there is nothing to make one more objectively meaningful than another.

On the other hand, if God exists, then what we do does have eternal significance because there will be eternal life beyond the end of the word, and some actions (love of family and neighbor) really could be more objectively meaningful than others (drinking oneself into a stupor night after night). Some fuller explanations thereof here.
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  #34  
Old Apr 22, '12, 9:12 am
Arizona Mike Arizona Mike is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

I don't think the concept of "worth" has meaning without God.
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  #35  
Old Apr 22, '12, 9:40 am
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

The Poll becomes of no consequence in light of the belief in the Father Son and Holy Spirit? IMHO anyway

Or as we see when another states I have no belief in Gods. Then ones moral ethical paradigm is subjected to other modes.

So I would have to ask what ones manifesto of Objective Truth is then.
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
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  #36  
Old Apr 22, '12, 10:13 am
wendy w. wendy w. is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

My answer is no because I have already known God and life without him would hold no meaning for me. There has to be some purpose for our Joy and sufferings if there is no God then what is the point of these things. I can live with my trials in life when I unite them to Jesus' suffering. Just my opinion.
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  #37  
Old Apr 22, '12, 10:33 am
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ThinkingSapien ThinkingSapien is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

From where I stand the hypothetical question asked here seems to be the world in which we live now. I've not encountered any deities as far as I can tell and I find my life to be not only of value to me, but of value to others. (Similarly I also value their lives too).

That's not to say that the answer would be the same for every one. There currently are people that even now don't find value in their own lives.
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  #38  
Old Apr 22, '12, 2:26 pm
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atheistgirl atheistgirl is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danserr View Post
A person might believe that their life was meaningful without God, but that does not mean that it actually is.
I think you're quite wrong. If I think my life has meaning, it has, regardless of ANYTHING else.

I don't believe in the existence of any hight beings, powers, or gods, and they have no bearing what so ever on the worth or meaning of my life.

Quote:
Y was not valuable on his own, but only because of his positive effect on Z (which assumes that Z was meaningful. But if Z. was not meaningful, how could Y be? And if not Y, then not X... and so on, until even A was not meaningful.
My answer regarding my family is a current fact, in that I come from a large family and have a large family, and I will live on through them, genetically and in memory, writings and paintings Ive left behind, and the things I've changed, made, improved, contributed to and done while I'm here.
But if none of that were the case, I would still have the same worth and value as a person, because I am me.
I do not need the affirmation of anyone to make it so I have any worth. The very fact I exist is enough. How I use my existence and the effect this has on others is another issue.

Quote:
then the life of everyone comes to the same no matter how they lived.
Yes I believe it does.

Quote:
The scientist who worked to better human life and the dictator who worked to destroy it all come to the same.
I beleive that is correct.

Quote:
Without God, we might ascribe a meaning to our actions, but this would only show a subjective meaning, not any objective meaning.
I dont understand how refering to a higher being makes anything more objective. Everything is subjective and relative. Everything. It's even relative to relate to gods because the one you believe in is not the same as the one a Hindu believes in, or a Muslim, or a Buddist. So their so called 'objective' reference to their god is only relative really, considering the number and kinds of different dieties people believe in all over the world.

Quote:
rather, both actions are meaningful (or "true") for the people who do them. In both cases they create their own meaning, and there is nothing to make one more objectively meaningful than another.
To the individual no but to the society they live in, yes, as we don't allow people to murder at will and get away with it. We recognise that strong stable communities ensure all our safety and survival.

Quote:
On the other hand, if God exists, then what we do does have eternal significance
I don't believe anything we do has an eternal bearing whatever. Consequences can be and often are felt through the generations, but in the end, our life here is finite, and I believe, when it's over, that's it.

Sarah x
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Struggle and conflict is neither good nor bad, it just is. Everything that grows experiences conflict. Conflict precedes clarity. Everything has the seasons of growth. Recognize - acknowledge - forgive and change. All of these things are done through conflict.
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  #39  
Old Apr 22, '12, 2:31 pm
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atheistgirl atheistgirl is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

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Originally Posted by itullian View Post
don't fool yourself..........in a few short generations no one will even know you were here.
And I won't be here. So I won't care

I just do best while I can, have passed on some good genes hopefully, and after that, it's all out of my hands.

Sarah x
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Struggle and conflict is neither good nor bad, it just is. Everything that grows experiences conflict. Conflict precedes clarity. Everything has the seasons of growth. Recognize - acknowledge - forgive and change. All of these things are done through conflict.
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  #40  
Old Apr 22, '12, 2:54 pm
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atheistgirl atheistgirl is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danserr View Post
Some fuller explanations thereof here.
Thank you danserr for the link. It ties in quite well with what I've always thought, that is, for some people, the idea that this is what we've got and we better make the best of it, or waste the one chance we have at life, is too much.

So we (they) create a system which allows them to believe they can live on forever.

For Christians, this is believing in Jesus and a certain way of behaving.

For others, it's whatever gods or dieties they've been brought up to believe in.

Sarah x
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Struggle and conflict is neither good nor bad, it just is. Everything that grows experiences conflict. Conflict precedes clarity. Everything has the seasons of growth. Recognize - acknowledge - forgive and change. All of these things are done through conflict.
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  #41  
Old Apr 22, '12, 3:06 pm
tonyrey tonyrey is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by atheistgirl View Post
Thank you danserr for the link. It ties in quite well with what I've always thought, that is, for some people, the idea that this is what we've got and we better make the best of it, or waste the one chance we have at life, is too much.

So we (they) create a system which allows them to believe they can live on forever.

For Christians, this is believing in Jesus and a certain way of behaving.

For others, it's whatever gods or dieties they've been brought up to believe in.

Sarah x
Forgive me, Sarah, but I can't resist pointing out that many people have been brought up to believe in - and worship - their diet!
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  #42  
Old Apr 22, '12, 3:11 pm
tonyrey tonyrey is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

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Originally Posted by ThinkingSapien View Post
From where I stand the hypothetical question asked here seems to be the world in which we live now. I've not encountered any deities as far as I can tell and I find my life to be not only of value to me, but of value to others. (Similarly I also value their lives too).

That's not to say that the answer would be the same for every one. There currently are people that even now don't find value in their own lives.
They may not value their lives but they must value their opinion that their lives are without value! Otherwise they wouldn't be so sure...
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  #43  
Old Apr 22, '12, 3:11 pm
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atheistgirl atheistgirl is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

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Originally Posted by tonyrey View Post
Forgive me, Sarah, but I can't resist pointing out that many people have been brought up to believe in - and worship - their diet!
Lol

I'm worshiping a lovely crab louie salad at my desk right now

Sarah x
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  #44  
Old Apr 22, '12, 4:15 pm
danserr danserr is offline
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Default Re: Would life be worth living if there was no God?

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Originally Posted by atheistgirl View Post
I think you're quite wrong. If I think my life has meaning, it has, regardless of ANYTHING else.

I don't believe in the existence of any hight beings, powers, or gods, and they have no bearing what so ever on the worth or meaning of my life.
If you think your life has meaning it does? I know that may sound comforting and I can appreciate that, but consider the flip side. If you think your life does not have meaning, then it does not! If you think your life does not have value or purpose, then it does not!

Anyway, this just shows what I have been saying, that if God did not exist, then any meaning, value, and purpose to life is wholly subjective. That is to say, it is dependent on what human beings think or perceive. That means, a student who finds meaning in drinking himself into a stupor is just as meaningful as a a scientist who works to better the human race. So, if God did not exist, then drinking oneself into a stupor can be just as meaningful as working to cure cancer. Surely, that is absurd?

Quote:
I dont understand how refering to a higher being makes anything more objective. Everything is subjective and relative. Everything. It's even relative to relate to gods because the one you believe in is not the same as the one a Hindu believes in, or a Muslim, or a Buddist. So their so called 'objective' reference to their god is only relative really, considering the number and kinds of different dieties people believe in all over the world.
Because, if God does exist, then the value, purpose, and meaning of life can be objective, by which I mean, independent of what human beings think or perceive. In this case we have God, who is a Greatest Conceivable Being, a being worthy of worship, to serve as an objective standard of value, purpose, and meaning.

As to believing in other Gods, remember what I keep saying, the issue is not belief in God or other gods, but whether or not the Judeo-Christian God exists. If He does (as I would say the evidence indicates), then human life can have an objective meaning, purpose, or value. If not, then these things are wholly subjective, that is, dependent on what human beings think or perceive.

Quote:
To the individual no but to the society they live in, yes
But I thought you said that the individual determined what was meaninful, are you saying now that society has veto power and decides meaning and value.

As to value, you suggest two different things, one that you have value just by being you, the other, that "everything is subjective and relative."

Now, I agree that you do have value just by being you, because I am a theist, but I think that if God did not exist, then your second statement would be true. Human beings would simply be clever animals, evolved over a long time, and our values the result of socio-biological conditioning. That is, our moral values would be wholly subjective, ie, dependent on what human people think.

But if our moral values are wholly subjective, how can you have value just for being you? Values would be determined by what people thought, so if you or society thought you did not have value, then you would not have value.

Actually, this probably explains the problem of youth bullying and suicide. Most youth do think moral values are subjective, ie, dependent on what people think. In this case, though, it becomes overwhelmingly important what people think, and if society (their high school/circle of friends etc.), think they do not have value, well, then they don't.

If Christianity is true, though, then such a person can know that they do have moral value for themselves because they know that they were created and loved by an good God, who died for them, and who intends them for eternal life. Which belief system seems to you to provide a better basis for human value?

Quote:
I don't believe anything we do has an eternal bearing whatever.
And I think everything we do does, because we have both God and the hope of eternal life.

Quote:
Thank you danserr for the link. It ties in quite well with what I've always thought, that is, for some people, the idea that this is what we've got and we better make the best of it, or waste the one chance we have at life, is too much.

So we (they) create a system which allows them to believe they can live on forever.
I think the message to take away rather is something that we both seem to admit, that without God, there is no possible objective meaning, purpose, or value to human life. People, however, cannot live happily with this view, so great is the human need for such things, as a consequence, people who deny God must deceive themselves into thinking that human life does have meaning, value, or purpose. They are thus logically inconsistent, because they try to live as if life does have objective meaning, purpose, and value, but they admit they have no basis for it.

This is why Dr. Rue suggested (in the article I provided to you), that while moral relativism is certainly the case (or so he thought), we must deceive ourselves by means of a "Noble Lie" into thinking the universe still has meaning, value,,and purpose, because "without such lies, we cannot live" (here).

Or else, one could live consistently and happily if Christianity is true.
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  #45  
Old Apr 22, '12, 4:28 pm
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