What's Hurting the Church: Utilitarian Masses - Page 4

EcceAgnusDei · #46 Apr 23, '12, 12:46 pm

The whole issue of time is probably the main reason why the Roman Canon, the oldest Eucharist Prayer, is rarely used. This is unfortunate.

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Jegudiel · #47 Apr 23, '12, 12:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathryn

Eating out with parishoners is frequently half relaxing and half working. Many times what is being discussed is church related. Sometimes it is just parishoner "friends" wanting Father's ear, and he agrees to meet them for breadfast, lunch, dinner, because his schedule is so busy. Sometimes these parishoners "friends" also are involved in church ministries that need planning. I was just at one of these group meetings at a restaurant and we were discussing Confirmation and First Communion plans. It could have looked as if Father was just relaxing, but we were all working. Parishoner's frequently take their priests out to eat, but because of tight schedules, my pastor goes to multilple lunches and dinners all in one day__different people needing his time.

Still no excuse for a utilitarian Mass. The only reason I mentioned him eating breakfast was to quell those who were sure he was visiting the sick or working on the serving line of a soup kitchen.

Jegudiel · #48 Apr 23, '12, 12:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EcceAgnusDei

The whole issue of time is probably the main reason why the Roman Canon, the oldest Eucharist Prayer, is rarely used. This is unfortunate.

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I agree 100%

I hear the Roman Canon once or twice a year -- from visiting priests.

EcceAgnusDei · #49 Apr 23, '12, 12:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jegudiel

I agree 100%

I hear the Roman Canon once or twice a year -- from visiting priests.

I never "hear" it, since I attend the EF

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Jegudiel · #50 Apr 23, '12, 12:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimothyH

What's hurting the Church is the failure of Catholics to recognize the last six words in of the Mass.

Go forth, the Mass is ended.

Only three words for those who prefer Latin.

Ite, missa est.

The Mass is a sending forth. The Mass is just the beginning. The Mass is supposed to give us strength to go forth and live what we just experienced in our daily live and witness to other poeple that which we have just experienced.

And what we experienced is the ressurection of life on the altar.

We kneel. We pray. We recieve Jesus. The Mass isn't the problem.

What happens the other 167 hours of the week is the problem. Failing to live the life of Christ who we just saw made present on the altar and whome we just recieved - that's what is hurting the Church.

-Tim-

And what happens in those hours is HUGELY influenced by what one experiences at Sunday Mass, even more so today because that often peoples' only real connection to the faith anymore.

Just how important is God made to feel to us if the Mass is slammed through on Sunday mornings? Why doesn't the Pope celebrate 41 minute Masses at St. Pete's? There is a difference between solemness and utilitarianism.

Jegudiel · #51 Apr 23, '12, 12:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewEnglandPriest

Apples and oranges. People go to movies, sporting events, etc. to be entertained. We don't go to Mass to be entertained. We go to Mass to be spiritually fed.

When it comes to physically eating, I recognize the importance of eating and even important eating well. However, I also know that I don't want to attend a 3 hour meal every week. In a similar way, people who come to be fed spiritually don't necessary need/want a certain length of time.

People also get tired of being limited to McDonald's every Sunday morning.

No one said anything about a 3 hour Mass. The difference in spiritual feel between a 41 minute GET IT DONE Mass and a 6-70 minute Mass can be profound.

**ProVobis** · #52 Apr 23, '12, 12:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jegudiel

He actually appeared as if he was under a time limit to finish within a certain number of minutes. He looked stressed and if he was hurrying. It was disquieting.

A usual Sunday Mass with 200+ attendees and communion under both kinds is not around 45 minutes -- unless it's a burn through it utilitarian Mass.

For those priests who are "fast talkers", maybe they need some help to speak with a more reverent cadence?

OTOH, I've seen 1/3 of congregations walk out during or right after communion. I'm almost certain that the longer the Mass takes, the more people you will see leaving early. I can understand why the priest doesn't want to extend the time more than he needs to. It's not fun to see people walking out on you or God or your fellow neighbor.

Cathryn · #53 Apr 23, '12, 1:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jegudiel

I agree 100%

I hear the Roman Canon once or twice a year -- from visiting priests.

My Pastor usually saves the Roman Canon for Solemnities. He also takes out his Roman vestments and uses incense and holy water, more altar servers, etc. He believes certain feasts are more solemn than the ordinary Sunday Masses. So, we don't get the Roman Canon too often either. I am only bringing this up to show you that there can be good reasons for a priest to reserve certain Eucharist prayers.

Jegudiel · #54 Apr 23, '12, 1:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewEnglandPriest

Is he like that often? Perhaps that's just his outward personality appearance.

Nope, sorry. With proper arrangement of communion lines 200 communicants still is around 45 minutes.
The usual things that lengthen Mass are: how many verses of hymns are sung, if there's a post-communion hymn and its duration, the arrangement of communion lines. How fast the priest speaks rarely takes off more than a few minutes from the overall time.

Really? Like the reverent cadence of the low Mass in the 50's and 60's when the priest would mumble through the Latin without pauses or punctuation?

I think we need to be careful about redefining reverence to mean "what I like."

He pretty much always rushes. And that extends not only to the celebration of the Mass but arriving from the sacristy 5 minutes before it begins and clearing out right after it's over. To his defense, this "model" has been common to just about every priest at the parish over the past 20+ years.

Nope, sorry. I have never experienced a non-rushed 45 minute Mass with a homily, at least minimal music and communion under both kinds for 200 or so communicants. Simply impossible to be done in 45 minutes without obviously rushing through it.

The EF Mass as celebrated in the 1950/1960's is a red herring for this conversation except for one possible point. It may well have conditioned older Catholics to prefer and even demand short, fast, utilitarian Masses.

No matter how it's defined, reverence is never a rushed, stripped-down Mass when it doesn't have to be.

Jegudiel · #55 Apr 23, '12, 1:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathryn

My Pastor usually saves the Roman Canon for Solemnities. He also takes out his Roman vestments and uses incense and holy water, more altar servers, etc. He believes certain feasts are more solemn than the ordinary Sunday Masses. So, we don't get the Roman Canon too often either. I am only bringing this up to show you that there can be good reasons for a priest to reserve certain Eucharist prayers.

Jegudiel · #56 Apr 23, '12, 1:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewEnglandPriest

Sorry, there's no way a priest's fast talking or moving is going to cut 20 minutes off of Mass time. I think there's some misunderstandings about time management and Mass.

Sorry, but the Mass took 41 minutes. I looked at my watch only because it was clear he was flying through the Mass even faster than normal. My experience at other parishes and with visiting priests that Sunday Mass takes about 60-70 minutes depending on his many are receiving Holy Communion.

EcceAgnusDei · #57 Apr 23, '12, 1:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

OTOH, I've seen 1/3 of congregations walk out during or right after communion. I'm almost certain that the longer the Mass takes, the more people you will see leaving early. I can understand why the priest doesn't want to extend the time more than he needs to. It's not fun to see people walking out on you or God or your fellow neighbor.

I can understand it, too, but the answer seems to be better catechesis. The faithful needs to be instructed why the Mass is so important and why it should be high in their priorities. They need to understand why they should stay for the entire Mass. But when Mass is pared down to conform to them, we are simply confirming them.

We should raise ourselves up to the ideals of the Church, not lower the ideals of the Church to us.

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Jegudiel · #58 Apr 23, '12, 1:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathryn

You sound so hostile towards "these priests" who have entered "your" parish. There is no liturgical abuses taking place. Please give your Pastor a break. When you ask the Pastor "in the nicest terms" why he is in "such a hurry to celebrate the Mass" you are insulting him. It is admirable that he ingnored your question. It seems that he is trying to be charitable. As another poster pointed out, some parishoners leave the parish when the Mass is too long, others too short. They know they can't please everyone. If your Pastor has his own pace, that should be respected.

"Hostile?" Please don't judge me. Leave that to God.

As I already noted I have asked. I did it nicely, away from the Mass and the parish after being asked about my spiritual life with regard to the parish.

Given the setting and the tone it was horrible that he ignored my question.

NewEnglandPriest · #59 Apr 23, '12, 1:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EcceAgnusDei

Father, I'd have to disagree. It's not apples and oranges. My point was that people complain that Mass is too long (when it is barely an hour), but don't complain about entertainments.

Actually that has caught up with entertainment as well. Only rarely will people go to a movie that's over 2 hours, sports need to be wrapped up in under 3 hours now, and news segments are even shorter than Mass!

Quote:

Prayer should have a higher priority than entertainments. We'll spend hours being entertained, but complain when we are asked to pray. It is a question of priorities.

Prayer is not confined to Mass. And its not that people complain about being asked to pray, they complain about sitting through long boring homilies, hymns that go on forever, etc.

Quote:

I do agree 100% that we do not go to Mass to be entertained. The four purposes of Mass are: adoration, thanksgiving, atonement, and petition. We should be willing to give God at least an hour on Sundays, shouldn't we?

Spiritual entertainment is still entertainment. Each person should spend as much time in prayer as is beneficial for him/her.

Like I said, I need to not only eat but also eat well in order to be healthy. However that doesn't mean I want/need to sit for X amount of time each day/week to do it.

Jegudiel · #60 Apr 23, '12, 1:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EcceAgnusDei

That's too bad... people are willing to go to 3 hour long movies, or sporting events, or watch James Bond marathons, or whatever, but then they get upset when God asks them for an hour of time for liturgical prayer, for the Mass, the most important of all prayers, and on Sunday, too, which is the Lord's Day.

We are the ADHD society...

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So true. Even still, it's no excuse for utilitarian Masses.