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  #16  
Old Apr 27, '12, 6:44 pm
Et Cetera Et Cetera is offline
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Default Re: Obama at Holocaust Museum

Quote:
Originally Posted by L piperatus View Post
Btw, does the Holocaust Museum receive federal dollars?

Let's apply for federal grants to fund the Abortion Museum.
These kinds of statements are unfair to the plight of the Jewish people, and this rhetoric certainly won't sway moderates into being pro-life.
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  #17  
Old Apr 28, '12, 5:30 am
L piperatus L piperatus is offline
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Default Re: Obama at Holocaust Museum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
Obama does not 'support' abortion of any sort. He is opposed to criminalisation of most abortion procedures. It would make more sense for people to accept that he is genuine in his belief that zygotes, embryos and fetuses do not have human rights, or at least not in the way the Catholic church sees them, and argued that point, rather than seeking analogies which your pro-choice opponents will reject instantly. Some people I know regard the killing of cattle as murder. Pro-choice people react like you react on hearing that when abortion is equated with murder, or genocide. It makes sense to start where you opponent is if you want to persuade.
Let's try this:

"I do not support shooting abortionists, I'm just opposed to prosecuting the guy who killed the abortionist George Tiller. I do not support the Holocaust, I just oppose the idea of bringing the perpetrators of Nazi genocide to justice. I do not support child rape, I just oppose the laws that criminalize child rape. I do not support serial killers, I just believe that Charles Manson and all serial killers should be set free."

Does it all make any sense?

Yes, Obama supports abortion. Moreover, he is using the HHS mandate to FORCE ME to pay for other people's abortions.
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  #18  
Old Apr 28, '12, 5:37 am
L piperatus L piperatus is offline
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Default Re: Obama at Holocaust Museum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et Cetera View Post
These kinds of statements are unfair to the plight of the Jewish people, and this rhetoric certainly won't sway moderates into being pro-life.
I disagree. I pray for a time to come when we will remember legalized abortion as an atrocity in the same category with the Holocaust, the genocide in Rwanda, and slavery. And I really do believe we should have Abortion Museums and Abortion Memorials of all sorts, as reminders of this tragedy, just as we have today museums/memorials of the Holocaust, slavery, the Civil War, etc.
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  #19  
Old Apr 28, '12, 5:53 am
L piperatus L piperatus is offline
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Default Re: Obama at Holocaust Museum

But I guess if we'll ever have an Abortion Museum, Barack Obama will have a prominent place in it... ...as the guy who opposed the Born Alive Infant Protection Act!
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  #20  
Old Apr 28, '12, 1:08 pm
Hokomai Hokomai is offline
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Default Re: Obama at Holocaust Museum

Quote:
Originally Posted by L piperatus View Post
Let's try this:

"I do not support shooting abortionists, I'm just opposed to prosecuting the guy who killed the abortionist George Tiller. I do not support the Holocaust, I just oppose the idea of bringing the perpetrators of Nazi genocide to justice. I do not support child rape, I just oppose the laws that criminalize child rape. I do not support serial killers, I just believe that Charles Manson and all serial killers should be set free."

Does it all make any sense?

Yes, Obama supports abortion. Moreover, he is using the HHS mandate to FORCE ME to pay for other people's abortions.
Yes, it does make sense, if you accept your basic view that abortion = murder. Obama does not, and in the case of at least some abortions, neither do the vast majority of people. A person who considers the killing of cows to be murder could mount the exact same argument as you do. You, I imagine, would be as troubled by that as I imagine Obama is troubled by your view. Your problem is making progress on this issue. Progress will not be made through the use of extreme language and extreme analogy, and failure to consider the complete point of view of opponents. Whatever you think, Obama does not think he 'supports' abortion. Finding the right language to engage in these circumstances is difficult, but far more profitable than the result of using the wrong words.
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  #21  
Old Apr 29, '12, 9:26 am
L piperatus L piperatus is offline
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Default Re: Obama at Holocaust Museum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
Yes, it does make sense, if you accept your basic view that abortion = murder. Obama does not,
Yeah and the Nazis didn't accept other people's basic view that killing Jews, Poles, Gypsies, homosexuals, disabled people, etc by gassing them is murder. The Hutus who hacked Tutsis into pieces with machetes didn't accept other people's basic view that killing Tutsi people is murder. The slave owners who killed slaves didn't accept that what they were doing was murder.

And Barack Obama doesn't accept other people's basic view that hacking an unborn child to pieces, in the mother's womb, is murder - that's why he defends abortion, including partial-birth abortion. Barack Obama doesn't accept that killing an unborn child in his mother's womb with drugs such as Ella is murder - that's why his government passed this HHS mandate forcing employers to pay for mothers killing their children through chemical abortions. Moreover, Mr. Obama doesn't accept other people's basic view that a child who was born alive during a botched abortion is a human being to be protected instead of being allowed to die - that's why Mr. Obama fought against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act for 3 years in the Illinois Senate.

So, where do his policies place Barack Obama? In the company of genocidal Nazis, Hutu thugs, and slave owners. History will not be kind to Mr. Obama. Just as we look today with horror at the pictures of Nazi officials like Adolf Hitler and Dr. Josef Mengele, future generations will look with horror at the pictures of Barack Obama, Kathleen Sebelius, Nancy Pelosi and Dr. George Tiller - these are some of the people who aided and perpetrated the American Holocaust of millions and millions of abortions.
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  #22  
Old Apr 29, '12, 9:02 pm
severus68 severus68 is offline
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Default Re: Obama at Holocaust Museum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
Yes, it does make sense, if you accept your basic view that abortion = murder. Obama does not, and in the case of at least some abortions, neither do the vast majority of people. A person who considers the killing of cows to be murder could mount the exact same argument as you do. You, I imagine, would be as troubled by that as I imagine Obama is troubled by your view. Your problem is making progress on this issue. Progress will not be made through the use of extreme language and extreme analogy, and failure to consider the complete point of view of opponents. Whatever you think, Obama does not think he 'supports' abortion. Finding the right language to engage in these circumstances is difficult, but far more profitable than the result of using the wrong words.
Actually, from what I have read Obama said his religious beliefs do not allow him to support abortion but he cannot impose his views on others. While I am pro life and find late term abortions particularly repugnant, there are already laws in Illinois and Federal law (US) that protect the live born ( who can survive) even the result of abortion. I find some are ever ready to twist facts to pursue their agenda ( not referring to you of course or anyone in particular) . Obama is mixed race but it is strange how even some Americans keep referring him as Black. I wonder why?
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  #23  
Old Apr 30, '12, 4:58 am
L piperatus L piperatus is offline
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Default Re: Obama at Holocaust Museum

Barack Obama defended infanticide in the Illinois senate.

Listen to state senator Obama argue in favor of killing babies, on the senate floor of Illinois:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pieuS6W-goA

And here's his voting record - the man kept voting for infanticide, and against protecting babies, during his whole tenure in the Illinois senate from 2001 to 2004. That's why Alan Keyes famously said that Jesus Christ could never vote for Barack Obama.


Quote from http://www.jillstanek.com/2008/02/li...rotection-act/ :
Links to Barack Obama’s votes on Illinois’ Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Below is a listing of then-state Senator Barack Obama’s votes and state senate floor speeches on IL’s Born Alive Infant Protection Act.
(At right is a political cartoon by Jack Higgins, printed in the Chicago Sun-Times on August 25, 2004, during his U.S. Senate campaign.)



A package of Born Alive bills was introduced three times during Obama’s tenure.
The cornerstone bill was the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, aka “Born Alive Infant Defined,” which defined legal personhood to include born alive infants any time the words “person,” “human being,” “child,” or “individual” was stated in IL law.
This definition was identical to the federal BAIPA which was drafted from the definition of “live birth” created by the World Health Organization in 1950 and adopted by the United Nations in 1955.
Following are Obama’s actions and votes on Born Alive. The bill number changed every year it was reintroduced.
2001
Senate Bill 1095, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Obama’s “no” vote in the IL Senate Judiciary Committeehere, March 28, 2001
Transcript of Obama’s verbal opposition to Born Alive on the IL Senate floor, March 30, 2001, pages 84-90
Obama’s “present” vote on the IL Senate floor, March 30, 2001
2002
Senate Bill 1662, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Obama’s “no” vote in the Senate Judiciary Committee, March 6, 2002
Transcript of Obama’s verbal opposition to Born Alive on the IL Senate floor, April 4, 2002, pages 28-35
Obama’s “no” vote on the IL Senate floor, April 4, 2002
Listen to audio from Obama’s 2002 IL Senate floor debate wherein he argued that while babies might be aborted alive, it would be a “burden” to a mother’s “original decision” to assess and treat them.
Meanwhile, the federal Born Alive Infants Protection Act with a “neutrality clause” added passed the U.S. Senate 98-0, the U.S. House overwhelmingly, and was signed into law August 5, 2002. The pro-abortion group NARAL expressed neutrality on the bill.
2003
Senate Bill 1082, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Democrats took control of the IL Senate with the 2002 elections. This year Born Alive was sent to the Health & Human Services Committee, chaired by Barack Obama.
As can be seen on the vote docket, Obama first voted to amend SB1082 to add the “neutrality clause” from the federal version of Born Alive to the IL version to make them absolutely identical. (DP#1 means “Do Pass Amendment #1.)
Then Obama voted against the identical version. (DPA means, “Do Pass as Amended.)
Additional corroboration of Obama’s vote: IL State Senate Republican Staff Analysis of SB 1082, March 12-13, 2003, bottom of page 2
For 4 years following his 2003 vote Obama misrepresented it, stating the wording of the IL version of Born Alive was not the same as the federal version, and he would have voted for it if so. As recently as August 16, 2008, Obama made this false assertion.
But when evidence presented was irrefutable, Obama’s campaign on August 18, 2008, admitted the truth to the New York Sun.
The nonpartison group FactCheck.org has since corroborated Obama voted against identical legislation as passed overwhelmingly on the federal level and then misrepresented his vote.
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