contraception vs nfp - Page 5

LovesLife · #61 May 19, '12, 8:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armor of Light

Wrong. Your opinion that is.

NFP is allowed because it in no way closes the door to new life.

You can't prove that the OP is wrong...................you have no clue what past political motives were in place to create religious doctrines............I wonder at what point my friend the OP will realize that being an agnostic or even an atheist makes more sense.

LovesLife · #62 May 19, '12, 9:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armor of Light

"God helps those who help themselves" is a nice sentiment, but more abused than "Judge not lest ye be judged". Well, maybe not more abused...but abused.

Who said "God helps those who help themselves", anyway?

Many people say it. How is it abused? Show me and the OP that. I'd love to see it.

LovesLife · #63 May 19, '12, 9:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahs

One's gender or one's feelings are not relevant to whether an act is inherently sinful or not.

Regarding why contraception is not approved, yet NFP is...

Contraception is not allowed because it DOES close the door to new life.

You are a male. You don't know what your reaction would be if you were a female. Remember too that only men were literate when all these so-called rules were made. Men made the rules for women to follow. I am hoping my friend the OP keeps realizing that.

LovesLife · #64 May 19, '12, 9:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahs

If it's totally flawed logic, then it should be discussed further so that we can all learn from the mistake. So, let's evaluate what that poster was quoting that you said is totally flawed:

Which aspect of this flawed, and how so?

I'm not going to be as patient as my friend the OP.......I'm going to tell you to go buy a clue. Figure out what would make you say that using contraception is akin to telling your wife to put a bag on her face...............

LovesLife · #65 May 19, '12, 9:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armor of Light

I believe this is what you refer to:

"Totally flawed"?

Arbitrarily asserted so arbitrarily denied.
Better be ready to point out the flaws and defend your point.

The only thing that you would use to defend your logic is some claim that a deity says this is how it is. The flaw I can see is that if she uses or used a contraceptive device, is your assumption that she is pointing out any error of any deity. I had braces as a child. I use hair color-I use cosmetics. Am I correcting errors on the part of any god? No, not how I would see it and I don't think she would either. We are altering a situation. No harm is done to anyone.

She was really trying to see if there were other Catholics online that were questioning some of the reproductive doctrines. That's it.

vsedriver · #66 May 19, '12, 9:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LovesLife

The only thing that you would use to defend your logic is some claim that a deity says this is how it is. The flaw I can see is that if she uses or used a contraceptive device, is your assumption that she is pointing out any error of any deity. I had braces as a child. I use hair color-I use cosmetics. Am I correcting errors on the part of any god? No, not how I would see it and I don't think she would either. We are altering a situation. No harm is done to anyone.

She was really trying to see if there were other Catholics online that were questioning some of the reproductive doctrines. That's it.

Since it is sin that keeps us from God it is very important to know what is sinful behavior and what isn't sinful behavior. Using something designed by God for a specific purpose for anything other than that purpose is sinful.

It is a teaching of the Catholic Church that sex is designed by God to be both unitive and procreative. Therefore sex outside of a marriage is a sin. Sex that is not open to life is a sin. Why is NFP not a sin? Because NFP is still open to life. Fertility is not a requirement to make sex holy and non-sinful. Otherwise sex among married couples past childbearing age would be sinful. Abstaining from sex is not a sin.

Also choosing ABC tells God you want the pleasures of sex but don't want the results of sex ie baby and you are taking an active role in preventing that baby.

NFP says you are open to a baby, you are not actively preventing a child since the fertility cycle is a natural creation of God. You do not take sexual pleasure without being open to the possibility of having a child.

igor1980 · #67 May 19, '12, 9:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsedriver

It is a teaching of the Catholic Church that sex is designed by God to be both unitive and procreative. Therefore sex outside of a marriage is a sin. Sex that is not open to life is a sin. Why is NFP not a sin? Because NFP is still open to life. Fertility is not a requirement to make sex holy and non-sinful. Otherwise sex among married couples past childbearing age would be sinful. Abstaining from sex is not a sin.

Also choosing ABC tells God you want the pleasures of sex but don't want the results of sex ie baby and you are taking an active role in preventing that baby.

NFP says you are open to a baby, you are not actively preventing a child since the fertility cycle is a natural creation of God. You do not take sexual pleasure without being open to the possibility of having a child.

If fertility is not a requirement to make sex non sinful, and NFP is using a natural fertility cycle created by God, why one must have grave reasons to make use of it?

Anyway, isn't making charts, taking temperatures and everything that NFP implies, taking an active role in preventing a baby?

domestichippie · #68 May 20, '12, 5:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbirdNY

God helps those who help themselves.............do we really reward our earthly children for stupid decisions? No, we don't. We let them learn.

I wouldn't say God helps those who helps themselves. There are lots of cases in the bible where "helping them selves" led to ruin.

That fact that men made the rules is not relevant to me. God loves women just as much as men he just created us differently with different purposes in mind. Equal in value but not suited for the same purpose.

I just want to discuss why nfp mindset is different from contraceptive mindset. ( mentally not physically.

domestichippie · #69 May 20, '12, 5:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsedriver

Since it is sin that keeps us from God it is very important to know what is sinful behavior and what isn't sinful behavior. Using something designed by God for a specific purpose for anything other than that purpose is sinful.

It is a teaching of the Catholic Church that sex is designed by God to be both unitive and procreative. Therefore sex outside of a marriage is a sin. Sex that is not open to life is a sin. Why is NFP not a sin? Because NFP is still open to life. Fertility is not a requirement to make sex holy and non-sinful. Otherwise sex among married couples past childbearing age would be sinful. Abstaining from sex is not a sin.

Also choosing ABC tells God you want the pleasures of sex but don't want the results of sex ie baby and you are taking an active role in preventing that baby.

NFP says you are open to a baby, you are not actively preventing a child since the fertility cycle is a natural creation of God. You do not take sexual pleasure without being open to the possibility of having a child.

Is it possible to have an open mindset while using contraception? Any person having sex should realize that having a baby is possible as a result ( I'm counting abortion as a not an option ever mind you) there is that .1% with most forms.

When I was on the pill we had one or two times where I was excited when we thought the pill may have failed. And if it did a baby would not be viewed as a mistake but blessing

vsedriver · #70 May 20, '12, 9:18 am

[quote=igor1980;9316774]

Quote:

If fertility is not a requirement to make sex non sinful, and NFP is using a natural fertility cycle created by God, why one must have grave reasons to make use of it?

to avoid using sex purely for pleasure negating its dual purpose.

Quote:

Anyway, isn't making charts, taking temperatures and everything that NFP implies, taking an active role in preventing a baby?

how is charting your natural body cycle preventing conception?

Not having sex is also an active role in preventing a baby. Are you saying a married couple that abstains is being sinful?

You are allowed to have sex whether or not you are fertile as long as you are married and open to life.

vsedriver · #71 May 20, '12, 9:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by domestichippie

I just want to discuss why nfp mindset is different from contraceptive mindset. ( mentally not physically.

because NFP puts God in charge working within a natural system that He created.

Contraception puts man in charge, breaking something that is fully functional and ordered to a God created purpose.

You are essentially thumbing your nose at God and saying to God "I don't trust you to send me only the children I can handle." "I will decide how many children I want, if any. In the mean time I'm going to enjoy the pleasure You attached to sexual activity and reject the purpose You designed it for."

vsedriver · #72 May 20, '12, 9:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by domestichippie

Is it possible to have an open mindset while using contraception? Any person having sex should realize that having a baby is possible as a result ( I'm counting abortion as a not an option ever mind you) there is that .1% with most forms.

When I was on the pill we had one or two times where I was excited when we thought the pill may have failed. And if it did a baby would not be viewed as a mistake but blessing

no, that is not an open to life mindset. That is accepting responsibility for contraception failure.

The real question is do you trust God?

igor1980 · #73 May 20, '12, 10:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsedriver

to avoid using sex purely for pleasure negating its dual purpose.

Then if you have grave reasons you can negate its dual purpose? Why if you have grave reasons cannot use ABC?

Quote:

how is charting your natural body cycle preventing conception?

Again, if there is no problem in charting your natural body cycle, why do you need grave reasons to do it?

Quote:

Not having sex is also an active role in preventing a baby. Are you saying a married couple that abstains is being sinful?

No, I'm saying that I don't understand why you need grave reasons to use NFP.

Quote:

You are allowed to have sex whether or not you are fertile as long as you are married and open to life.

Making charts, taking temperatures, and doing all that you can in order to prevent getting pregnant doesn't seems to me quite open to life.

ahs · #74 May 20, '12, 4:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by igor1980

Then if you have grave reasons you can negate its dual purpose? Why if you have grave reasons cannot use ABC?

Again, if there is no problem in charting your natural body cycle, why do you need grave reasons to do it?

No, I'm saying that I don't understand why you need grave reasons to use NFP.

Making charts, taking temperatures, and doing all that you can in order to prevent getting pregnant doesn't seems to me quite open to life.

You need a grave reason because marriage is supposed to be for making a family. Deciding to not have children without a grave/serious reason would be an act of selfishness. Yet, using NFP still doesn't thwart the procreative nature of an act because, either the act is not taking place, or it is being completed in the natural manner ordered toward procreation. So, using NFP without serious reason is a sin of selfishness, not of contraception.

Armor of Light · #75 May 21, '12, 6:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LovesLife

You can't prove that the OP is wrong...................you have no clue what past political motives were in place to create religious doctrines............I wonder at what point my friend the OP will realize that being an agnostic or even an atheist makes more sense.

Look ...this is not Facebook. This is a catholic forum. If you want a bunch of people to tell you that ABC is peachy-keen, the post it on Facebook and I'm sure most of your 384 friends will give you a thumbs up.

The OP's opinion that NFP is OK with the catholic church because of this and that political reason and conspiracy theories against women bla bla bla. is wrong. All it takes is a quick search and reading a few paragraphs to outline and explain the churchs position. It has been summed up on this thread very well. Yes- you are correct. If one wants to live by their own rules and not accept any other authority, then being an agnostic makes perfect sense. ABC feeds into that mindset very well. NFP and the catholic church do not, The catholic church accepts and defends and supports women according to womens true dignity. I hope your friend realizes this.