Is Protestantism , in it's nature, a heresy? - Page 7

PeterJohn · #91 Apr 24, '12, 7:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by highrigger1

Peter,

My intent is entirely ecumenical. Not to search for something and not desperate.
Peace, JohnR

Suuuuuure

highrigger1 · #92 Apr 24, '12, 7:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patavium

How come you be consistent? You said you can add and remove books, and are ok by it.

I am not sure, I understand what you believe. It just doesn't make sense to me. You acknowledge the authority of the Church, but you say that it must be sola scriptura. Then Who explains the teachings? 20000000 different pastors that disagree with themselves?

Our pastors preach and we read the bible. With that we make up our own mind.
I find they are remarkedly consistent. Differences are minor.

Yes all teaching and preaching must be constent with the apostles who are found in scripture. Peace, JohnR

highrigger1 · #93 Apr 24, '12, 7:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterJohn

Again
I must clarify, the bible, is grouping of writings/songs/poems who God inspired its authors to make. God dictated the 10 commandments, not the bible. The bible is simply a bunch of writings inspired by God.

peter,

You deny that scripture is the Word of God which is stated at every Mass?

Peace, JohnR

highrigger1 · #94 Apr 24, '12, 7:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

High,

It has been proven on another thread that the Bible cannot proven to be "true" based on the Bible alone...so first you have to establish that the Bible is the Bible. How do you do that...

then to continue in a path that does not deviate from the Apostles...how do you do that?

coptic,

The same way the early churches decided on that. The Rule Of Faith. Your read it and decide same as they did. I think they did a great job. What is there to argue about?

Peace, JohnR

CopticChristian · #95 Apr 24, '12, 7:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by highrigger1

Peter,

Do you think I am a heretic? Peace, JohnR

High,

You could only be a heretic if you accepted something and then denied it...

PeterJohn · #96 Apr 24, '12, 7:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by highrigger1

peter,

You deny that scripture is the Word of God which is stated at every Mass?

Peace, JohnR

How do you know What is stated at the mass I go to friend? Are you a scholar of anti-catholisim?

PeterJohn · #97 Apr 24, '12, 7:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by highrigger1

Our pastors preach and we read the bible. With that we make up our own mind.
I find they are remarkedly consistent. Differences are minor.

Yes all teaching and preaching must be constent with the apostles who are found in scripture. Peace, JohnR

Are you in the UMC?

PeterJohn · #98 Apr 24, '12, 7:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by highrigger1

peter,

You deny that scripture is the Word of God which is stated at every Mass?

Peace, JohnR

You still never provided me with a SOLID quote from the bible, from the words of our lord in that tell you that you can achieve salvation solely from scripture

pablope · #99 Apr 24, '12, 8:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by highrigger1

Peter,

Are you being sarcastic when you say "friend."? I hope not. At least you agree with me that scripture is Gods Word. Peace, Not much else is Gods Word. Right?
JohnR

Do you believe that the word of God is limited to only the written word?

And how do you know the Bible is indeed the written word of God? Where does the Bible state such?

Kathryn Ann · #**100** Apr 24, '12, 8:05 pm

Yes, it is.
Kathryn Ann,

Catholic Convert (2004) from protestant traditions.
Blessings on your day!

Mike2010 · #**101** Apr 24, '12, 8:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterJohn

Where does Jesus say all you need is scripture? Did God intended all his sheep most of which couldn't read for over 1000 years(which Peter was charged with feeding/tending) to follow teachings by a book that wasn't put together for almost 400 years and that now interprit so differently and cause division amongst one another ? Becuase Sola implys that right?

Exactly, and not only that, but Jesus never promised a Book. He did however, give the world his Church, which is guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is also not the author of confusion, which is shown amongst the now 30-40,000 different denominations all disagreeing with each other in many issues. That is contradictory to the nature of God, who is all perfect.

Jim Dandy · #**102** Apr 24, '12, 9:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by highrigger1

Peter,

The real question is where else do you find the teachings of Jesus but in scripture?

In the heart of the Catholic Church, in her Sacred Apostolic Traditions entrusted to her by Jesus and the Apostles.

Quote:

Scripture existed as soon as it was written which was by 100AD.

Yes, but the Church was founded in A.D. 33. She had been teaching the Gospel and confecting the Eucharist for 77 years by the time the last of what eventually became the writings of the New Testament (NT) were finished. The NT was not defined and the Bible compiled until the very end of the fourth century and beginning of the fifth.

The writings of Paul and the Gospels of Mt, Mk, Lk, and Jn were accepted as "Scripture" early on (John was not written until the end of the first century), but the deuterocanonical writings of the NT -- Hebrews, James, II Peter, II and III John, Revelation, and Mark 16:9-20 -- were not accepted until the end of the fourth century. We know this from Eusebius' History of the Church, written in the first quarter of the fourth century. And he reported that1 Clement was "Recognized." The Shepherd of Hermes and Epistle of Barnabas were included as "Scripture" in the mid-fourth century Codex Sinaiticus. The making of the NT was a long winnowing process. The Church decided the contents of the NT and added them to the Greek Septuagint Scriptures she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles to form the Bible at the Councils of Rome (A.D. 382), Hippo (393), and Carthage (397, 419). The canon was in flux until the end of the fourth century.

Quote:

Irenaeus expressed his respect for scripture and that was 170AD. It was not put together after 400 years at all.

You are mistaken.

http://www.ntcanon.org/Irenaeus.shtml

Quote: Regarding the New Testament canon, one finds in Adversus Haereses [ A.D. 180 - 189] quotations from all the books of the New Testament with the exception of:
Philemon, II Peter, III John, and Jude. He [Irenaeus] also considered these writings, not in the present New Testament, of value: I Clement, Shepherd of Hermas. However, the following he considered heretical: Gospel of Truth For a summary of his opinions see the Cross Reference Table. Irenaeus was especially insistent that there are exactly 4 Gospels, and used numerological arguments surrounding the number 4, such as the 4 covenants, for support. End quote

It is a fact of history that there was no book called the Bible until the end of the fourth Christian century and beginning of the fifth. No one could be certain which writings were inspired Scripture and which were not of the many writings that circulated among the local branches of the Church until Mother Church declared the canon.

Quote:

I believe I have the right to think and decide for myself. Scripture is the Word of God. Does it say different?. Does anyone say different?

Do you have the right the decide for yourself what Scripture is (the Inspired Word of God) and what is Scripture (the writings that belong in the Bible)? Can inspiration be proven? How do you know the Bible is the Word of God? Answer: because someone told you and you believed it. The Bible doesn't make that claim. It can't. It is a collection of writings, not a continuous book, and requires an authority to attest that it is the Word of God. That authority is the Church that wrote the NT and compiled the Bible, guided by the Spirit. NT, OT, and Bible are terms the Catholic Church used to name her collection of sacred Scripture.

God entrusted His Church -- the Catholic Church -- with the duty of writing and producing the Bible. This is the Church referred to in the NT -- "church" does not include the multitude of ecclesial communities that call themselves "churches" which developed in or after the 16th century. The Catholic Church did not come out of the Bible -- rather, the Bible came out of the Catholic Church.

Catholic Church: Founded by Jesus Christ in A.D. 33 in Jerusalem.

Methodist ecclesial community: Founded by John and Charles Wesley between 1739 and 1744 in England, split from the Church of England.

One is God-made. One is man-made.

Peace be with you.

CopticChristian · #**103** Apr 24, '12, 9:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by highrigger1

coptic,

The same way the early churches decided on that. The Rule Of Faith. Your read it and decide same as they did. I think they did a great job. What is there to argue about?

Peace, JohnR

High,

I do not know..you tell me..this is the Methodist Family Tree...

http://www.thearda.com/Denoms/Famili...methodist.asp#

You want me to believe that they all have the same Rule of Faith and decided to unite or divide? It seems there is lots to argue about or they would be united...

kepha1 · #**104** Apr 24, '12, 11:38 pm

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

High,

It has been proven on another thread that the Bible cannot proven to be "true" based on the Bible alone...so first you have to establish that the Bible is the Bible. How do you do that...

then to continue in a path that does not deviate from the Apostles...how do you do that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by highrigger1

coptic,

The same way the early churches decided on that. The Rule Of Faith. Your read it and decide same as they did. I think they did a great job. What is there to argue about?

Peace, JohnR

John, do you mean they compared scripture with a non-existing Bible? Or did they test the scripture against Apostolic Teaching?

Before the canon of the Bible, the Christian Rule of Faith (TRADITION) included belief in the Apostolic succession through the Episcopate, the authority of Tradition itself, the authority of Scripture, the three fold ministry (bishop-priest-deacon), the Eucharist as Sacrifice, belief in baptismal regeneration, prayers for the dead, veneration of the Saints, the Seven sacraments, the evangelical counsels, and others.
The historical evidence is there for anyone who wishes to see it.

Patavium · #**105** Apr 24, '12, 11:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

High,

I do not know..you tell me..this is the Methodist Family Tree...

http://www.thearda.com/Denoms/Famili...methodist.asp#

You want me to believe that they all have the same Rule of Faith and decided to unite or divide? It seems there is lots to argue about or they would be united...

and the pastors of all these churches go to the bible, and are able to have no difference across teachings, because of their "apostolic succession" according to high