Oakland bishop: Abortion next mandated health benefit? - Page 2

Tarpeian Rock · #16 Apr 26, '12, 5:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonNC

The assault on our standard of living will continue. I've listened to the left in the country all my adult life say Americans live too well, that we use more resources than we deserve, etc. Well, what better ways to lower the American standard of living than to artificially inflate energy costs, and burden us with massive debt?

Postpartum abortion?

Jon

And you put your finger on why this particular slippery slope could also lead not just to mandated abortion coverage, but mandatory abortions themselves -- after all, if we use a disproportionate share of resources, surely the eco-crazies who have Obama's ear must see a time when birth regulation becomes a state matter in order to "save the planet."

**Ridgerunner** · #17 Apr 27, '12, 9:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTL

Should any Catholic who has a right conscience still vote for Obama?

No. Just no.

Jerry Miah · #18 Apr 27, '12, 9:25 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTL

Should any Catholic who has a right conscience still vote for Obama?

Think of it this way. If we'd had a McCain-Palin ticket, there's a good chance we'd still be at war in Iraq, and we'd be bombing Iran by now. And if Romney gets in, the chances of the pro-war forces getting a free hand again are much greater. Add to that the Catholic voices who show that the GOP budget plans fail the morality test -- it will increase suffering in the USA. Should any Catholic who has a right conscience vote for more war and immoral economics?

Suudy · #19 Apr 27, '12, 9:35 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Miah

Should any Catholic who has a right conscience vote for more war and immoral economics?

Let's accept the truth of your unsubstantiated claims for the sake of discussion.

Which is the greater evil? Intentional destruction of innocent life or "war and immoral economics"? (Note that war does not intentionally target innocent life--at least not as engaged in by the US.)

**Ridgerunner** · #20 Apr 27, '12, 9:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Miah

Think of it this way. If we'd had a McCain-Palin ticket, there's a good chance we'd still be at war in Iraq, and we'd be bombing Iran by now. And if Romney gets in, the chances of the pro-war forces getting a free hand again are much greater. Add to that the Catholic voices who show that the GOP budget plans fail the morality test -- it will increase suffering in the USA. Should any Catholic who has a right conscience vote for more war and immoral economics?

Pulling it a bit long here.

If McCain had won, we might still be in Iraq, just like we are now.
No particular reason to believe we would be bombing Iran.
And with Obama's escalation in Af/Pak, his war on Libya and possibly soon one in Syria, you're worried that ROMNEY will go pro-war? Wrong tree, pardner.

Can you give us a compelling reason to believe the GOP budget fails the morality test, when the only authorities behind that conclusion are two bishops (who objected only to two things, not all) and 90 left-wing professors at Georgetown? (and the remaining majority of professors thought....what?)

And realizing that neither the bishops as a whole nor the Pope has ever said the GOP budget is immoral, but that they have definitely condemned the Obama contraceptive/abortifacient mandate as well as its support for abortion and homosexual "marriage" generally, does one really think Catholics should support this grotesquely immoral administration...one so immoral that it orders Church institutions to commit sin?

vz71 · #21 Apr 27, '12, 9:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Miah

Think of it this way. If we'd had a McCain-Palin ticket, there's a good chance...

And with the Obama presidency we actually have.

So you believe it is more moral to vote for certain abortion instead of only the possibility of war.

Bear in mind, even if the war were a certainty, there is still no comparison with the evil of abortion.

JMJSHJ · #22 Apr 27, '12, 10:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Miah

The old slippery-slope fallacy at play

Ever study history?.... No I didn't think so.

mary bobo · #23 Apr 27, '12, 10:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Miah

Think of it this way. If we'd had a McCain-Palin ticket, there's a good chance we'd still be at war in Iraq, and we'd be bombing Iran by now. And if Romney gets in, the chances of the pro-war forces getting a free hand again are much greater. Add to that the Catholic voices who show that the GOP budget plans fail the morality test -- it will increase suffering in the USA. Should any Catholic who has a right conscience vote for more war and immoral economics?

Should any citizen continue to vote for spending money that is not there? This is truly immoral IMO.

qui est ce · #24 Apr 27, '12, 11:14 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vz71

And with the Obama presidency we actually have.

So you believe it is more moral to vote for certain abortion instead of only the possibility of war.

Bear in mind, even if the war were a certainty, there is still no comparison with the evil of abortion.

Interestingly the subject of the thread is

Quote:

Oakland bishop: Abortion next mandated health benefit?

How did we get to the morality of war issue?

Every single thread Jerry Miah posts in gets derailed to the righties like to kill women and children in immoral wars (and step on kittens' tails).

Jerry Miah · #25 Apr 27, '12, 11:21 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

Pulling it a bit long here.

If McCain had won, we might still be in Iraq, just like we are now.
No particular reason to believe we would be bombing Iran.
And with Obama's escalation in Af/Pak, his war on Libya and possibly soon one in Syria, you're worried that ROMNEY will go pro-war? Wrong tree, pardner.

Can you give us a compelling reason to believe the GOP budget fails the morality test, when the only authorities behind that conclusion are two bishops (who objected only to two things, not all) and 90 left-wing professors at Georgetown? (and the remaining majority of professors thought....what?)

And realizing that neither the bishops as a whole nor the Pope has ever said the GOP budget is immoral, but that they have definitely condemned the Obama contraceptive/abortifacient mandate as well as its support for abortion and homosexual "marriage" generally, does one really think Catholics should support this grotesquely immoral administration...one so immoral that it orders Church institutions to commit sin?

In a nutshell, our involvement in Libya, perhaps the very model of cautious, humanitarian intervention (a separate debate), can hardly be compared to the mass murder of the unprovoked attack on Iraq. Iraq is the elephant in the room no one really wants to discuss, but the elephant is towering over all of us. The Dems timidly went along with it, but it was the GOP and the right wing that was, and still is, the driving force for advocacy of this kind of total war, and it's an immoral disgrace.

A multitude of voices, Catholic and otherwise, are pointing out that the GOP budget fails the morality test -- there's a separate thread on the particulars.

This is why to vote the GOP into the White House is not a moral act.

ComputerGeek25 · #26 Apr 27, '12, 11:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Miah

Think of it this way. If we'd had a McCain-Palin ticket, there's a good chance we'd still be at war in Iraq, and we'd be bombing Iran by now. And if Romney gets in, the chances of the pro-war forces getting a free hand again are much greater. Add to that the Catholic voices who show that the GOP budget plans fail the morality test -- it will increase suffering in the USA. Should any Catholic who has a right conscience vote for more war and immoral economics?

Obama and the Democrat controlled Congress (Dems still have the majority in the Senate) didn't exactly get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan any quicker nor did they close Gitmo. Last I checked we are still there, and in pretty good numbers.

Your claims about Iran are silly and have no basis.

Also, there's that little thing called the Just War Theory.

ComputerGeek25 · #27 Apr 27, '12, 11:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Miah

The old slippery-slope fallacy at play

So, I guess you're ok with legalized genocide, as long as a politician plays to your envy of the successful and responsponsible members of society, even though things are still status quo?

Jerry Miah · #28 Apr 27, '12, 11:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suudy

Let's accept the truth of your unsubstantiated claims for the sake of discussion.

Which is the greater evil? Intentional destruction of innocent life or "war and immoral economics"? (Note that war does not intentionally target innocent life--at least not as engaged in by the US.)

C'mon. That's a very whitewashed version of war. The war on Iraq was not intentional destruction of innocent life? It most surely was. It was an immoral disgrace, an unprovoked attack, and hundreds of thousands were slaughtered. The GOP hasn't shown a shred of remorse or regret or even any indication that they wouldn't do it again. They are saber-rattling towards Iran and a Pres.McCain would probably be bombing them now.

The sad fact on legal abortion is that it doesn't change much whether it's a Republican or a Democrat in the White House. Bush with a lot of support for eight years didn't do much if anything about it. So essentially this can be taken out of the equation; the fight lies elsewhere.

So that leaves the moral choice riding on the fact that the GOP is the War Party, and it's just not moral to vote for them at this point in history.

qui est ce · #29 Apr 27, '12, 11:47 am

And now a word from our topic.

ComputerGeek25 · #30 Apr 27, '12, 11:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Miah

C'mon. That's a very whitewashed version of war. The war on Iraq was not intentional destruction of innocent life? It most surely was. It was an immoral disgrace, an unprovoked attack, and hundreds of thousands were slaughtered. The GOP hasn't shown a shred of remorse or regret or even any indication that they wouldn't do it again. They are saber-rattling towards Iran and a Pres.McCain would probably be bombing them now.

The sad fact on legal abortion is that it doesn't change much whether it's a Republican or a Democrat in the White House. Bush with a lot of support for eight years didn't do much if anything about it. So essentially this can be taken out of the equation; the fight lies elsewhere.

So that leaves the moral choice riding on the fact that the GOP is the War Party, and it's just not moral to vote for them at this point in history.

Do you have any proof of hundreds of thousands women and children and old people being slaughtered?

Also, if that was the truth, wouldn't Obama and the Democrat controlled congress be complicit in the act since they allowed it to happen well after Bush?