Why are Orthodox allowed to receive communion? (Merged threads)

[dzheremi]

Yeah. Lots of Orthodox churches used to belong to various Protestant sects or Catholics. This is why many have pews and are not designed in the traditional shape.

[Peter J]

Originally Posted by Pitcharan

Orthodox behavior has often surprised me too:

• Their clergy advise the flock to attend Catholic mass and receive communion wherever they don't have their own church
• They have signed an agreement with the CC recognizing each other's Sacraments and allowing either flock to attend Mass and receive communion.
• They don't allow us to receive communion and their priests claim complete ignorance of any agreement with us
• They often borrow the church premises from us as well as Protestants for holding their Mass

Pitcharan, where did you hear this? It sounds to me like you've been listening to some hardcore anti-Orthodox propaganda.

[Seamus L]

Regarding the original poster's question, it does at first glance seem a bit one sided, but personally speaking, I don't know any Catholics, or Orthodox, who wish to be communed or worship in each others churches.

[JharekCarnelian]

My wife and I worship in both although we each only commune in our respective Church.

[Fone Bone 2001]

Originally Posted by Ana v

Catholics: Suppose the circumstances under which our Church permits us to receive Holy Communion at an Orthodox parish are present; I attend a Divine Liturgy. Should I not, out of respect for the Orthodox, nevertheless refrain from even attempting to receive Holy Communion? Yes/No/Why/Why not?

You should refrain from attempting to receive Holy Communion. It's important to respect the laws of the Orthodox Church.

It's not wrong to request permission to receive, but this must be done in advance, and if (as is most likely) the Orthodox priest's answer is "no," then you must respect that.

Under no circumstances should a Catholic present himself or herself, without warning or prior permission, for Holy Communion at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

Originally Posted by DhuAlQarnayn

You should ask the priest beforehand. Priests in the Orthodox churches have a great deal of discretion regarding who they are willing to commune. Many parishes will not commune Catholics, but some are happy to. You should not attempt to receive unless you know that the particular priest giving the service allows it.

Exactly. It's not wrong to ask, and then receive if the priest gives you permission, but no Catholic who is just randomly showing up without announcement at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy should attempt to Commune. It's extremely disrespectful and sacrilegious toward the Orthodox Church's requirements.

Originally Posted by Nine_Two

Isn't one of the conditions the Catholic Church has on receiving in an Orthodox Church that you abide by our own rules on the subject?

Absolutely.

Unfortunately, as the OP's friend attests, many lay Catholics have no idea that Catholics are generally not permitted to receive Holy Communion at Orthodox Divine Liturgies.

We Catholics need to do a better job of making sure that Catholics understand that receiving a church's Holy Communion is acceptable only if two conditions are met: one's own church is okay with one's doing so, and their church is okay with it as well.

Originally Posted by John of Patmos

I wouldn't want to get an Orthodox priest in trouble

Exactly. It's shameful to present yourself for Communion that you're not supposed to receive; it puts the priest - whether Catholic or Orthodox - in an awkward situation. Not to mention it disrupts the Liturgy.

Originally Posted by Peter J

This isn't terribly strange, when you think about it. Consider: the Anglican Communion permits its member to receive communion from Catholic priests, but Catholics don't permit it.

Precisely. If we want Anglicans (and other Protestants) to respect our rules, then it would be the absolute height of hypocrisy to attempt to receive Holy Communion without prior permission at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

Originally Posted by Pitcharan

Orthodox behavior has often surprised me too: Their clergy advise the flock to attend Catholic mass and receive communion wherever they don't have their own church

You sure? I don't think that's true... I could be wrong, though.

Originally Posted by Pitcharan

They have signed an agreement with the CC recognizing each other's Sacraments and allowing either flock to attend Mass and receive communion.

No such agreement has the authority to speak for the entire Eastern Orthodox Church, and besides, that opinion is far from universal among Orthodox Christians. Their Church has no official position on whether or not our Sacraments have grace (i.e. are valid). Some Orthodox think ours are totally graceless, others think ours are perfectly valid, while far more (in my experience) are content to say that they just don't know for sure.

Originally Posted by Pitcharan

They don't allow us to receive communion and their priests claim complete ignorance of any agreement with us

As I said, I'm all but certain that such an agreement does not apply to the whole Eastern Orthodox Church. Those priests are probably being perfectly honest.

Originally Posted by Pitcharan

They often borrow the church premises from us as well as Protestants for holding their Mass

In my city (I live in the United States), that's not typically the case. They have their own church facilities.

Originally Posted by Nine_Two

The fourth is very likely true. Church groups are always borrowing buildings from other church groups, regardless of affiliation. It doesn't and shouldn't indicate an opinion one way or another as to the truth or validity regarding the borrowers beliefs.

Well said, Nine_Two.

Originally Posted by Seamus L

Regarding the original poster's question, it does at first glance seem a bit one sided, but personally speaking, I don't know any Catholics, or Orthodox, who wish to be communed or worship in each others churches.

Honestly, it doesn't even feel one-sided to me. Orthodox have the right to determine who they will give Holy Communion to. Just because we Catholics would permit them to receive at our Masses doesn't obligate them to do the same. It's not like they asked to be allowed to receive from us; they didn't.

I think many Protestants feel that their relationship with us, regarding Communion, is one-sided for precisely the same reason: they'd allow us to receive, so why don't we reciprocate?

But we have our reasons, as you know, and they must respect that. So it is with the Orthodox churches and us.

[dzheremi]

I have been told in no uncertain terms (in response to a question I did not have...) that we are not to commune even with the Byzantines (meaning the EO); how much more would I violate the faith of the Orthodox church by communing with Catholics? It's just not possible, even though I do like you guys very much on a personal/individual level. So it is not a slight against your church or any other non-Orthodox church, but for the preservation of our faith that this seeming disparity exists. This is pretty much the same as the RCC rationale for denying its communion to Protestants, if I remember correctly, so we are not so different.

[Seamus L]

Well put Dzheremi. At first glance I can say the custom look's one sided to us Catholics, but then I'm continually reminded by Orthodox Christians, that they may not take communion in a Catholic Church, and then I quickly realise that, while I have respect for the Orthodox, they do have different beliefs, and that would make communing with them, something that I have no desire for.

[Fone Bone 2001]

Originally Posted by dzheremi

I have been told in no uncertain terms (in response to a question I did not have...) that we are not to commune even with the Byzantines (meaning the EO); how much more would I violate the faith of the Orthodox church by communing with Catholics? It's just not possible, even though I do like you guys very much on a personal/individual level. So it is not a slight against your church or any other non-Orthodox church, but for the preservation of our faith that this seeming disparity exists. This is pretty much the same as the RCC rationale for denying its communion to Protestants, if I remember correctly, so we are not so different.

Yes, well said.

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Peter J

Pitcharan, where did you hear this? It sounds to me like you've been listening to some hardcore anti-Orthodox propaganda.

Note the answer on the OCA site, there is not one united opinion:

Concerning the Eucharist: Many Orthodox Christians do view the Roman Catholic Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ; others today would not subscribe to this. The answer is linked to whether one believes that Roman Catholicism is “with grace” or “devoid of grace.”

...

Orthodox Christianity has not reached a consensus on the Balamand statement, in part because not all of the world’s Orthodox Churches participated in the gathering, and in part because controversy has risen over the “sister church” or “two lung” theory. While there are some Orthodox who would perhaps ascribe to these notions, it is my understanding that Orthodoxy is the Church, not half or part of it.

- Fr. John Matusiak

http://oca.org/questions/romancathol...atholic-orders

[Pitcharan]

Originally Posted by Peter J

Pitcharan, where did you hear this? It sounds to me like you've been listening to some hardcore anti-Orthodox propaganda.

No Peter. It is my personal experience. My wife belongs to The Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, whose priests have always refused to give me Holy Communion and claim complete ignorance of the agreement between our churches.

[Pitcharan]

Originally Posted by Fone Bone 2001

No such agreement has the authority to speak for the entire Eastern Orthodox Church, and besides, that opinion is far from universal among Orthodox Christians. Their Church has no official position on whether or not our Sacraments have grace (i.e. are valid). Some Orthodox think ours are totally graceless, others think ours are perfectly valid, while far more (in my experience) are content to say that they just don't know for sure.

There is no such thing as 'entire Eastern Orthodox Church'. There are several of them and I am aware of a signed agreement between the CC and The Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

No, Orthodox do borrow from Catholics and Protestants. One of our parishes is on lease to the OCA. And I've seen Orthodox missions hold Divine Liturgy in a protestant church (a liturgical one, not those happy clappy ones).

I can also remember, several years ago, the case of a fire in a Serbian Orthodox church in my city. While the church was under repair, the Divine Liturgy was conducted in a neighboring Roman Catholic church.

This was done at the invitation of the Catholic pastor.

I would be hesitant in calling that 'borrowing', but rather a mutual acknoledgment of Christian Charity.

[Pitcharan]

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

Where are you getting all this from Pitcharan? Only the last point is really credible to any extent.

Directly from the The Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church (not the Malankara Catholic which has merged with the CC) which has signed an agreement with the CC in 1984.

Originally Posted by Nine_Two

I think you're thinking of Eastern Catholics regarding these agreements and such.

I am not referring to the Easter Catholic who have merged with the CC. They have never prevented Latin Rite people from attending their Mass or receiving Communion.

[Peter J]

Originally Posted by Vico

Note the answer on the OCA site, there is not one united opinion:

Concerning the Eucharist: Many Orthodox Christians do view the Roman Catholic Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ; others today would not subscribe to this. The answer is linked to whether one believes that Roman Catholicism is “with grace” or “devoid of grace.”

...

Orthodox Christianity has not reached a consensus on the Balamand statement, in part because not all of the world’s Orthodox Churches participated in the gathering, and in part because controversy has risen over the “sister church” or “two lung” theory. While there are some Orthodox who would perhaps ascribe to these notions, it is my understanding that Orthodoxy is the Church, not half or part of it.

- Fr. John Matusiak

http://oca.org/questions/romancathol...atholic-orders

Nowhere in those 2 quotes does it says that "Their [Orthodox] clergy advise the flock to attend Catholic mass and receive communion wherever they don't have their own church". All it says is that some Orthodox regard Catholic sacraments as valid.

[jinc1019]

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

Wasn't my earlier explanation clear? Acceptance of Papal Infallibility is NOT a requirement to receive Communion. Catholics today who reject Papal Infallibility commit sin and therefore inadmissible to Communion because they have sin, not what sin they have. Belief if Papal Infallibility is not part of the Orthodox faith, therefore they commit no sin in not believing in it. It is not what sin you have, its just the plain fact that you have a grave sin.

What is not clear here?

This is an absurd argument.....Obviously if the Church declares something to be sin and required assent to it then they are REQUIRING that the individual believe that thing before taking communion...which is exactly the same as saying you cannot take communion unless you believe in papal infallibility. It is all the same. You are saying on one hand that they don't require you believe in infallibility and then on the other you are saying they do, precisely BECAUSE they say it is a sin not to!