Is Humanity "Fundamentally Flawed"? - Page 3

TEPO · #31 Apr 29, '12, 9:05 pm

The way I understood it was that Adam and eve were given special graces that allowed them to be of pure conscience -that is until evil was externally influenced upon them. After the fall, man was corrupted, and was from then on subject to evil desires from within, not necessarily requiring outside influence.

I'm not claiming that my interpretation is the official Church position, but rather just the way I have come to understand as a cradle Catholic, with very little Protestant influence.

TEPO · #32 Apr 29, '12, 9:13 pm

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concupiscence#section_2

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) teaches that Adam and Eve were constituted in an original "state of holiness and justice" (CCC 375, 376 398), free from concupiscence (CCC 377). The preternatural state enjoyed by Adam and Eve afforded endowments with many prerogatives which, while pertaining to the natural order, were not due to human nature as such. Principal among these were a high degree of infused knowledge, bodily immortality and freedom from pain, and immunity from evil impulses or inclinations. In other words, the lower or animal nature in man was perfectly subjected to the control of reason and the will. Besides this, the Catholic Church teaches that our first parents were also endowed with sanctifying grace by which they were elevated to the supernatural order.[8] By sinning, however, Adam lost this original "state," not only for himself but for all human beings (CCC 416).

TEPO · #33 Apr 29, '12, 9:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fhansen

Concupiscence is what happens when God's no longer in control, when grace is no longer operative in us. IOW, concupiscence is what happens when man is in "control", with the end result that control of reason over the lower appetites is lacking, concupiscence presenting a major struggle for us.

So you're saying we can evade actual concupisence, or rather we can just work around it thanks to Christs sacrifice..?

(if you state the former ill need reference sources)

fhansen · #34 Apr 29, '12, 9:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEPO

So you're saying we can evade actual concupisence, or rather we can just work around it thanks to Christs sacrifice..?

(if you state the former ill need reference sources)

We can-and must -win the battle over sin due to Christs sacrifice. That's the purpose of the New Covenant, promising to accomplish in us what the Law couldn't accomplish according to the prophesy in Jer 31 and elsewhere:

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

Now it may take purgatory in order to finally complete this process of justification, but Gods' will will eventually be done in us-unless we're unwilling/uncooperative with His grace.

Other relevant verses include Matt 5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

...as well as:
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Rom 2:13

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Gal 6:7-10

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-10

Having said that, the struggle with concupiscence is generally considered to be life-long for us all, with us dependent on God in any case to 'finish the good work He began in us'. How this is worked out in the New Covenant is explained in the Catechism under the following:

III. THE NEW LAW OR THE LAW OF THE GOSPEL
1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount. It is also the work of the Holy Spirit and through him it becomes the interior law of charity: "I will establish a New Covenant with the house of Israel. . . . I will put my laws into their hands, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."19

1966 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit given to the faithful through faith in Christ. It works through charity; it uses the Sermon on the Mount to teach us what must be done and makes use of the sacraments to give us the grace to do it:
If anyone should meditate with devotion and perspicacity on the sermon our Lord gave on the mount, as we read in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, he will doubtless find there . . . the perfect way of the Christian life. . . . This sermon contains . . . all the precepts needed to shape one's life.20

1967 The Law of the Gospel "fulfills," refines, surpasses, and leads the Old Law to its perfection.21 In the Beatitudes, the New Law fulfills the divine promises by elevating and orienting them toward the "kingdom of heaven." It is addressed to those open to accepting this new hope with faith - the poor, the humble, the afflicted, the pure of heart, those persecuted on account of Christ and so marks out the surprising ways of the Kingdom.

1968 The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord's Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure,22 where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.23

fhansen · #35 Apr 29, '12, 9:58 pm

There's more to chew on in the Catechism from the following:

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin"(fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."67 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."68

1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us "holy and without blemish," just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish."13 Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition callsconcupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life.14 This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.15

2520 Baptism confers on its recipient the grace of purification from all sins. But the baptized must continue to struggle against concupiscence of the flesh and disordered desires. With God's grace he will prevail
- by the virtue and gift of chastity, for chastity lets us love with upright and undivided heart;
- by purity of intention which consists in seeking the true end of man: with simplicity of vision, the baptized person seeks to find and to fulfill God's will in everything;313
- by purity of vision, external and internal; by discipline of feelings and imagination; by refusing all complicity in impure thoughts that incline us to turn aside from the path of God's commandments: "Appearance arouses yearning in fools";314
- by prayer:
I thought that continence arose from one's own powers, which I did not recognize in myself. I was foolish enough not to know . . . that no one can be continent unless you grant it. For you would surely have granted it if my inner groaning had reached your ears and I with firm faith had cast my cares on you.315

TEPO · #36 Apr 29, '12, 10:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRKH

A poster in another thread asking if a one world religion would be good or bad made this comment.

I have some trouble with this....Since we are taught that we are made in God's "Image and likeness", how can be be fundamentally flawed....

I understand about, but to me that seems to be something added into our make-up...not necessarily "fundamental" to our make-up...

what do others think...

Peace
James

I wonder though -how can we claim that humanity is "fundamentally" flawed when considering the Immaculate Conception... Certainly Grace is something given and not necessarily something earned. (see signature)

I believe the word "fundamentally" is a bit too extreme.

TEPO · #37 Apr 29, '12, 10:45 pm

Fhansen, we've been given the sacraments and the "temple of the Holy Spirit" which is the Holy Church to enable us to receive sanctifying and saving grace... But we can never claim to be able to reach perfection on our own -whether that relies on our willingness to accept grace or not. Neither do our charities "earn" us more grace.

We have no authority to claim to be able to become sinless Unless God deems it so... we do have the devil to tend with afterall... He is real.

...but I will try to reflect more on your posts and will run a check ony conscience.

fhansen · #38 Apr 29, '12, 11:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEPO

Fhansen, we've been given the sacraments and the "temple of the Holy Spirit" which is the Holy Church to enable us to receive sanctifying and saving grace... But we can never claim to be able to reach perfection on our own -whether that relies on our willingness to accept grace or not. Neither do our charities "earn" us more grace.

We have no authority to claim to be able to become sinless Unless God deems it so... we do have the devil to tend with afterall... He is real.

...but I will try to reflect more on your posts and will run a check ony conscience.

Well, the New Covenant has nothing to do with reaching perfection on our own-just the opposite, in fact- but it does have to do with reaching perfection nonetheless, perfection defined as simply being who God created us to be, no more and no less.

It does, however, involve our wills. As Augustine said:
The God who gave you free will does not violate it to save you

**JRKH** · #39 Apr 30, '12, 4:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uzziah1

Somebody is "stuck on words" if they insist that particular words be repeated, as opposed to a paraphrasing of their meaning.

If words are "paraphrase-able," they have no definition.

They are meaningless.

As you wish....
But if we cannot have a meeting of the minds on the definition of terms, then we cannot have a meaningful conversation. We will simply wind up talking past one another.

I do thank you for your input though.

Peace
James