Muslims Continue Pushing Christians Out of Bethlehem

[CGDouglas]

Originally Posted by Abba

Perhaps, you should stop trying to spread fear and paranoi and educate yourself and see how you can spread peace and love.

Are you even remotely aware of Islamic aggression towards Christians that have occured since around Islam's origins? Maybe you should 'educate yourself' before making rather ignorant statements upon Christian-Islamic relations.

God Bless,

Christopher.

[CGDouglas]

Originally Posted by scipio337

Can you PLEASE point to which "Israel and its supporters" claim the land in the map you propose?

The map seems to originate from a 'princesspana.blogspot.com' courtesy of googling 'Israel's borders'. The blog, from the Google caption seems to relate to the borders in accordance with the Torah.

God Bless,

Christopher.

[scipio337]

Originally Posted by CGDouglas

The map seems to originate from a 'princesspana.blogspot.com' courtesy of googling 'Israel's borders'. The blog, from the Google caption seems to relate to the borders in accordance with the Torah.

God Bless,

Christopher.

Thank you.

In other words, no one in the modern era, minus a few Ultra Orthodox who don't even recognize modern Israel.

Its a common conspiracy that isn't supported by history or fact.

[Kouyate42]

Originally Posted by Kouyate42

Errrrr, you might want to consider that I'm an ex-Christian, a Muslim and also quite insulted and saddened by your post. I'll not answer the other things as it will take too long, but with regard to the bolded bit (my bolding) this is simply untrue.

For starters, there is no connection between the pagan worship at the Ka'aba and Islam. The Qur'an is very clear that the sun and moon, and any associated idols of moon goddesses or gods, is forbidden.
The Ka'aba was built by Ibrahim and Ishmael, who were Muslims, and was essential polluted by pagan worship as the worship of Allah was abandoned in favour of idols. All Islam did was restore the worship of Allah to the Ka'aba as it was intended to be used.

Quoted so people get the message.

[Eglantine]

Originally Posted by markomalley

The only Pope that I know of who has done that was Pope Pius XII back in 1948. That was done in response to the aerial bombardments of the Holy Sites. He said:

8. We are full of faith that these prayers and these hopes, an indication of the value that the Holy Places have for so great a part of the human family, will strengthen the conviction in the high quarters in which the problems of peace are discussed that it would be opportune to give Jerusalem and its outskirts, where are found so many and such precious memories of the life and death of the Savior, an international character which, in the present circumstances, seems to offer a better guarantee for the protection of the sanctuaries. It would also be necessary to assure, with international guarantees, both free access to Holy Places scattered throughout Palestine, and the freedom of worship and the respect of customs and religious traditions.

9. And God grant that the day may soon dawn when Christians may resume their pilgrimages to the Holy Places, there to see more clearly revealed, as they contemplate the evidence of the love of Jesus Christ, Who gave His life for His brethren, how men and nations may live harmoniously together, at peace with their world and themselves.

And that was a re-iteration of the Treaty of Sevres in 1920, which said in Article 95:

The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

Do you have a more modern example of a Pope doing so? (Please don't quote from some anti-Catholic site...but try to find an actual quote...thanks)

As a matter of fact the same statement on internationalising Jerusalem has been made by Pope Benedict quite recently. I will post again later with a link. Jerusalem of course belongs to the Jews not merely because it is a divine mandate 'as long as the heavens are above the earth' but also legally, as Abraham's purchase of land and other similar purchases of land in Scripture show. So the Jews have one home and the Pope wants to turf them out again. The funny thing is he still claims Catholic sites for the Catholic church, on land which was stolen from the Jews.

[Dale_M]

Originally Posted by Eglantine

As a matter of fact the same statement on internationalising Jerusalem has been made by Pope Benedict quite recently

I would appreciate a news link describing his statement. Sometimes remarks are taken out of context. Knowing exactly what he said, and why he said it, would help immensely in understanding this topic.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by scipio337

Can you PLEASE point to which "Israel and its supporters" claim the land in the map you propose?

Given that Israel pulled entirely out of Gaza and Sinai, is there some diabolical plot to now re-take this land (not to mention, Iraq and parts of Syria?)


Right. Unless you discount the whole conquest of Islamic conquest of the Levant, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and 2nd class citizenship as a "dhimmi" thoughout the several caliphates.

Sorry, Christians aren't faring very well in any Muslim majority region, and the problem there certainly isn't "Zionism".

To give an idea of how maliciously stupid and false anti-Israel propaganda is, I refer you to the map of "greater Israel". This map appears on radical anti-Israel hate filled internet sites.

Now we know that Israel, as opposed to the Arabs, accepted every mandate commission report and accepted the UN decision of 1947. Israel has returned the Sinai peninsula twice. It withdrew from southern Lebanon, it withdrew from Gaza and it withdrew control from Arab populations in Judea and Samaria, so that 97% of Palestinian Arabs are under Palestinian Authority or Hamas control. Israeli policy is for a negotiated settlement for a two state solution. At least twice in the past, Israel has virtually agreed to all territorial demands (with Barak and with Olmert) only to have the Palestinians balk because the problem is not Israeli willingness but the refusal of the Arabs to accept Israel. No one could seriously talk about a "Greater Israel" according to that map based on Israeli behavior and willingness to compromise for peace.

So where does the map come from? Well, in 2001 an individual who had immigrated to Israel from Russia announced that he was forming a movement and held a rally. The map was printed for that rally. I don't know if anyone showed up, the movement is not active today and I wasn't even able to find out if the person is still alive. Needless to say, that but for the same poster repeatedly posting this map, I would not even know that such a person ever existed. I was unable to find any material relating to the movement he wanted to form other than the rally announcement and the map from 2001.

Now how did this map of a non existent group get to be printed on all these virulent anti-Israel websites? In 2003 in an audio tape purported to be made by Ossama Ben Laden, he talked about the Jews wanting to take over parts of Iraq and Saudi Arabia. In the scramble to try and find support for this nonsense, the sites found this map of the rally announcement and it became part of their malicious lying propaganda.

The thing is, that there really are people who can be fooled by a rally advertisement for a non existent movement or who really don't know the of the compromises that Israel has always been ready to make, and has made, for peace.

Then again, people have been lying about Jews, Judaism and the Jewish State for so long, maybe we should just get use to it.

Except for countries like Israel, Christians are in real physical danger throughout the Middle East and Africa. For those who don't know his story, I am enclosing a link to the Umar Mulinde story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMWd7QnXY8E

[GaryTaylor]

Originally Posted by CGDouglas

Are you even remotely aware of Islamic aggression towards Christians that have occured since around Islam's origins? Maybe you should 'educate yourself' before making rather ignorant statements upon Christian-Islamic relations.

God Bless,

Christopher.

Chris honestly I don't think this is fair. I see an inner fear projected outwards. Probably from a caring Christian. I could be wrong.

Christian-Islamic relations is an enigma. Scott Hahn did a great show on this last week on EWTN. Common ground is seriously lacking. Certainly it can't be ignored. Dialogue in history of Christianity-Islam has always been of issue. Look at the entire history which brings us to the same basic situation today, encountered a very long time ago by Orthodoxy.

In regards to the OP? IMHO Israel is in a very tight position, I'm convinced they are waiting on US elections 2012. Perhaps the most critical election in US history. Lets face it, Orthodox Christian values have been undermined every step of the way here. The fastest growing religions are Mormons, Islam, and a slight increase in Evangelical Protestants. For sure its not Orthodoxy, to be exact Catholicism as of this month is -5%.

I used "prophecynewswatch.com" since its a recent 2012 survey which also confirms EWTN as of last week with the Morman/Islam statement of increase. EWTN did not speak on anything else but the two.

[CGDouglas]

Originally Posted by GaryTaylor

Chris honestly I don't think this is fair. I see an inner fear projected outwards. Probably from a caring Christian. I could be wrong.

It is entirely fair, the author decides to make a statement commanding the person to educate themselves. Well I'm telling that person. History explains itself for Islamic-Christian relations, they were bloody, oppressive and brutal. There was also a heavy amount of anti-Semitism within Muslim occupied territories. I doubt any inner fear, if that were to be true, one should be projecting it to other religions. There's a reason as to why it's directed to the Muslim faith, it's because ever since it's founding, it has been a religion that has expanded by the sword.

Originally Posted by GaryTaylor

Christian-Islamic relations is an enigma. Scott Hahn did a great show on this last week on EWTN. Common ground is seriously lacking. Certainly it can't be ignored. Dialogue in history of Christianity-Islam has always been of issue. Look at the entire history which brings us to the same basic situation today, encountered a very long time ago by Orthodoxy.

Except that when it came to Muslim aggression, it boosted Orthodox-Catholic relations until the sacking of Constantinople at the Fourth Crusade. The Orthodox called upon the Latin West for aid because of the Muslim acts.

I recommend Moshe Gil, Thomas Madden, Speros Vryonis as a few Historians who can demonstrate the total aggressiveness and brutality of the Muslims towards the Christians, particularly of the Middle-East over the past, particularly the crusader era.

As today, one need look further than a news article.

God Bless,

Christopher.

[Abba]

Originally Posted by CGDouglas

Are you even remotely aware of Islamic aggression towards Christians that have occured since around Islam's origins? Maybe you should 'educate yourself' before making rather ignorant statements upon Christian-Islamic relations.

God Bless,

Christopher.

Dear Christopher,

Please excuse my delay in responding to your post. I often take 40 days off the internet. The latest just ended yesterday.

I do not know if you are aware that I was responding to this request (bold is mine):

Originally Posted by SRaphael

What does it matter if it is a new article or news video? ... The war didn't start yesterday and it won't end tomorrow ... over several decades the violence and oppression against Christians has escalated to an all-time high, it is the stated goal of Islamic Jihad to either kill or subjugate all non-Muslims ... the Muslim Brotherhood was started in 1928 ... and if you think this violence won't spread to Europe or America you really have your head in the sand ... they are already here ... pay attention and educate yourself ... one place to start is actforamerica.org

To which I responded to the poster that perhaps he should educate himself.

Now that we have focused in educating ourselves, I must say it is a wonderful thing to do.

[Abba]

Originally Posted by chosen people

To give an idea of how maliciously stupid and false anti-Israel propaganda is, I refer you to the map of "greater Israel". This map appears on radical anti-Israel hate filled internet sites.

Dear chosen people, peace be with you.

The origin of the map as you may be well aware, is the Old Testament. There are hundreds of maps of this kind with different colors and painted by different people and organizations but in the end it is a map of the land given to the Jewish people in the Old Testament - that is the origin of the map - the Old Testament.

This website alone provides 41 different maps through history which includes various of Eretz Israel:
http://www.us-israel.org/?dn=us-isra...&pid=2PO786269

On this video a tour is given of Eretz Israel and the reporter has a map painted on leather.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6zN2ikpmqw

"The Land of Israel (Hebrew: אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל‎‎ ʼÉreṣ Yiśrāʼēl, Eretz Yisrael) is a biblical name for the territory roughly corresponding to the area encompassed by the Southern Levant (also known in English as Canaan, Palestine, Promised Land or simply the Holy Land). The religious belief that the area is a God-given inheritance of the Jewish people is grounded in the Torah, especially the books of Genesis and Exodus, as well as the Prophets. According to the Book of Genesis, the land was promised by God to the descendants of Abraham through his son Isaac and to the Israelites, descendants of Jacob, Abraham's grandson. A literal reading of the text suggests that the land promise is (or was at one time) one of the Biblical covenants between God and the Israelites." Here are more maps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel

My concern here and please allow me to state it clearly is as follows:

Given that one of the goals of a dominant portion of the people of Israel is to recuperate the 'Homeland" and the international support Israel has received; I think that it is only human although it may not be strategically and politically efficient to do so for Israel, but for the sake of humanity; to come forth and clearly state the goal in truth or at least be honest of the goal of Eretz Israel for a good portion of Israelis.

This way, the people of the world would be clear about the situation in the Middle East and can offer the Arabians, Palestinians, Christians and Muslims the opportunity to emigrate. I think this is a more human thing to do than to propose as some intellectuals have in Israel a "cleansing of the bedouin" as a university professor in Haifa was recently quoted as proposing, and as many have witnessed happening. http://www.masada2000.org/list-L.html

Knowing myself, as I do, if I lived during the Nazi era, I would propose the same for the salvation of the Jewish people. I would have proposed and argued that from jump start the Nazi would inform the world of their intention to cleanse their territories of Jews and give the people of the world the opportunity to welcome Jewish emigrants. In our time, I consider the Arabian-Israel conflict a big tragedy.

I think it would be productive if discussions move on from recognizing the goal of Eretz Israel for the right wing and many in Israel and take off by proposing solutions for the peaceful removal of the non-Jews who inhabit the land. The alternative is barbaric and inhuman. We cannot cover the sun with our fingers, denying the reality here and there does not make the problem go away.


"The term national religious refers to an
ideology that calls for the expansion of settlements and the idea of ‘Greater Israel’ that embodies
both the West Bank and Gaza Strip; thus they tend to be ardently against territorial withdrawal
and settlement dismantlement. Once the domain of secular Zionists, settlement of the West Bank
is now dominated by national religious Israelis. They comprise upwards of 80 percent of the
70,000 settlers residing outside the separation barrier in the West Bank and are becoming
increasingly anti-statist. International Crisis Group reports that former Israeli Intelligence Chief
Ami Ayalon estimates that eight percent of the West Bank’s 250,000 settlers are militantly antistate." https://www.maxwell.syr.edu/uploaded...20Study(1).pdf


"Religious Jews believe that Eretz Yisrael was promised to the ancient Israelites by God and the right of the Jews to the land is permanent and inalienable. To generations of diaspora Jews, Jerusalem has been a symbol of the Holy Land and of their return to it, as promised by God in numerous Biblical prophecies. Despite this, some Jews did not embrace Zionism before the 1930s and certain religious groups opposed it on the grounds that an attempt to re-establish Jewish rule in Israel by human agency was blasphemous. Hastening salvation and the coming of the Messiah was considered religiously forbidden, and Zionism was seen as a sign of disbelief in God's power and therefore a rebellion against God." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Zionism

Chosen people, as a Catholic I do not believe that the homeland for the Jewish people is Eretz Israel. I think it is a new land God will give to the Jewish people in Heaven or one renewed here on earth at His return. That is my spiritual understanding, however, I also understand the political reality today and so I think that we need to be compassionate with the Arabians and help them to relocate instead of supporting their destruction and cleansing from the land.

Btw, how do you find harmony in stating that the land of Israel as it exists today was God given yet you also state that you do not want the rest?

Peace,

Abba

p.s. It's funny that I should have written that in a discussion of Peace for the Middle East I would like to carry with me, as a priest carries a big crucifix, a map of Greater Israel - to be clear about what is on the table. I was just googling Eretz Israel and the agora coin which was made from an ancient coin that depicts the map of Greater Israel came up. I read that Yassar Arafat use to carry one with him.