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  #1  
Old Apr 29, '12, 9:46 pm
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The Holy War 11 The Holy War 11 is offline
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Default What changed after Vatican II

I am new to the Catholic Church ( 5 months) so don't think I'm dumb for asking, but what changes were made after Vatican II? Why do many traditional Catholics believe the Second Vatican Council is the great Harlot mentioned in Revelations? Thanks
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  #2  
Old Apr 29, '12, 10:02 pm
adrift adrift is offline
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

There were many changes that were attributed to the Spirit of Vatican II.
Every sacrament changed. The Mass went from being said in Latin to being said in vernacular languages. I believe for the most part it was a postive. What was negative was the excesses. I remember the sisters who taught me through away their habits and began to wear makeup.

Documents of Vatican II

Oh as a favorite teacher would say "There is no such thing as a dumb question, only dumb answers"
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  #3  
Old Apr 29, '12, 10:53 pm
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Aelred Minor Aelred Minor is offline
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrift View Post
There were many changes that were attributed to the Spirit of Vatican II.
Every sacrament changed. The Mass went from being said in Latin to being said in vernacular languages. I believe for the most part it was a postive. What was negative was the excesses. I remember the sisters who taught me through away their habits and began to wear makeup.

Documents of Vatican II

Oh as a favorite teacher would say "There is no such thing as a dumb question, only dumb answers"
To be clear, the sacraments themselves did not change, but the wording of the prayers and rituals involved in the administration of the sacraments changed, as well as in some cases the rules regarding the administration of the sacraments. As an example of the last point, the sacrament of Anointing of the Sick, formerly usually called Extreme Unction, may now be given not just to those on the threashold of death but also to others who are seriously ill but not in immediate danger of death (the change in which name is prefered reflects the fact that the situation need not be as "extreme" as was once the case).
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  #4  
Old Apr 29, '12, 11:03 pm
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Aelred Minor Aelred Minor is offline
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

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Originally Posted by The Holy War 11 View Post
I am new to the Catholic Church ( 5 months) so don't think I'm dumb for asking, but what changes were made after Vatican II? Why do many traditional Catholics believe the Second Vatican Council is the great Harlot mentioned in Revelations? Thanks
Ultimately there have been developments in nearly every aspect of the Church's life since the early 1960s, not all directly because of the Council of course. The second half of the 20th Century (and now the first decade plus of the 21st) has been a heck of a time for all parts of Western Civilization, including the Western Church. To some extent it could be interpreted as the end of Western Civilization and its replacement by a successor culture. In any case the Church did not want to become just a relic of antiquity.

I've never heard of any "traditional Catholics" claiming the Second Vatican Council to be the Harlot of Revelations. That would be an extreme, fringe, un-Catholic position, akin to the Reformation-era Protestant claim that the Catholic Church Herself was the Harlot.
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  #5  
Old Apr 30, '12, 4:23 am
roadsend roadsend is offline
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

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Originally Posted by Aelred Minor View Post
......
I've never heard of any "traditional Catholics" claiming the Second Vatican Council to be the Harlot of Revelations. That would be an extreme, fringe, un-Catholic position, akin to the Reformation-era Protestant claim that the Catholic Church Herself was the Harlot.
Yup. I also have never heard any Catholic use any such expression.
The closest I have heard to this was the expression "smoke of Satan". Pope Paul VI
apparently used this to describe unauthorized changes in Catholic practice after Vatican II.
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  #6  
Old Apr 30, '12, 4:30 am
OraLabora OraLabora is offline
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrift View Post
There were many changes that were attributed to the Spirit of Vatican II.
Every sacrament changed. The Mass went from being said in Latin to being said in vernacular languages. I believe for the most part it was a postive. What was negative was the excesses. I remember the sisters who taught me through away their habits and began to wear makeup.

Documents of Vatican II

Oh as a favorite teacher would say "There is no such thing as a dumb question, only dumb answers"
A quibble: the Roman Rite Mass went from being said almost exclusively in Latin to being allowed to be said in the vernacular. The use of Latin for the Mass in principle remains the norm, yes even the Ordinary Form.
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  #7  
Old Apr 30, '12, 5:34 am
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choliks choliks is offline
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

Something positive that's commonly overlooked: Religious orders and congregations were asked to return to their roots and charism; that they should live how their founders intended them to live.
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  #8  
Old Apr 30, '12, 6:05 am
OraLabora OraLabora is offline
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

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Originally Posted by choliks View Post
Something positive that's commonly overlooked: Religious orders and congregations were asked to return to their roots and charism; that they should live how their founders intended them to live.
Excellent point!
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  #9  
Old Apr 30, '12, 6:10 am
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

The restoration of the permanent diaconate. Was a good thing.
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  #10  
Old Apr 30, '12, 7:14 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadsend View Post
Yup. I also have never heard any Catholic use any such expression.
The closest I have heard to this was the expression "smoke of Satan". Pope Paul VI
apparently used this to describe unauthorized changes in Catholic practice after Vatican II.
Sounds like a pretty severe charge coming from the Pope. I've heard this but I wonder if any other Pope in Church history had made such a comment as a result of something he himself implemented or signed. Just saying.
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  #11  
Old Apr 30, '12, 8:00 am
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

Basically, the council made 16 documents and went home. Immediately some big changes were made to the Mass that had hardly changed in the grand scheme of things for over 1,000 years. It seems that no doctrine changed but people widely believed that everything had changed.

A few years later, after the council, a special group wrote a new Mass based on the ancient one but simpler, more vague in places, with modernized, less spiritual language. It was generally translated into the vernacular and the Latin original is rarely prayed.

At the same time, the outward form of all the other sacraments and Divine Office was changed in a similar manner, and the liturgical calendar was revised. By 1973 this was all complete.

Unfortunately, in the wider cultural shift in the West in the late 20th century, the traditional Catholic worldview has been largely lost as well.

But it's the same Church, the same Sacrifice, the same promise.

Forums like this exist because a minority of Catholics (myself included) find the Faith more clearly taught and most joyfully lived in the old ways that pre-dated the Council. The Church has made it clear that these older forms have not been rejected and the faithful can live that way while being totally obedient to Holy Mother Church.
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  #12  
Old Apr 30, '12, 8:34 am
OraLabora OraLabora is offline
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

Minor point I suppose, but although the Divine Office also changed, at the time of the change the Divine Office in use was only 60 years old when the LOTH came out in 1970, and before 1970 much experimentation was allowed.

Though it was a pretty big change, maybe even bigger than the change to the Mass. But so too were the 1910 changes a major break with tradition. We as laity didn't really see it as before 1970 the laity weren't really encouraged to pray the Divine Office. Believe me though it had a huge impact on religious communities and clergy bound to the Office, which is why the GILH permitted the older Office to continue, mostly for the benefit of elder clergy, for whom change was too difficult. Monastics though, had to follow whatever the abbot decided.
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  #13  
Old Apr 30, '12, 9:45 am
TimothyH TimothyH is online now
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwayslooking View Post
The restoration of the permanent diaconate. Was a good thing.
Along with the introduction of philosphy as a means to study theology and the introduction of the mendicant orders, I think this is perhaps one of the two or three least understood and least appreciated changes in the last 1000 years.


-Tim-
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  #14  
Old Apr 30, '12, 9:59 am
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Angel Bradford Angel Bradford is offline
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrift View Post
There were many changes that were attributed to the Spirit of Vatican II.
Every sacrament changed. The Mass went from being said in Latin to being said in vernacular languages. I believe for the most part it was a postive. What was negative was the excesses. I remember the sisters who taught me through away their habits and began to wear makeup.

Documents of Vatican II

Oh as a favorite teacher would say "There is no such thing as a dumb question, only dumb answers"

Actually, there were religious orders whose founders never intended them to wear habits, but were forced to by the Church. They were allowed to return to their founders original intentention.
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  #15  
Old Apr 30, '12, 1:24 pm
adrift adrift is offline
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Default Re: What changed after Vatican II

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Originally Posted by Aelred Minor View Post
To be clear, the sacraments themselves did not change, but the wording of the prayers and rituals involved in the administration of the sacraments changed, as well as in some cases the rules regarding the administration of the sacraments. As an example of the last point, the sacrament of Anointing of the Sick, formerly usually called Extreme Unction, may now be given not just to those on the threashold of death but also to others who are seriously ill but not in immediate danger of death (the change in which name is prefered reflects the fact that the situation need not be as "extreme" as was once the case).
Thank you for clarifying. I had thought about this as I wrote but forgot by the end of the sentenc. I am glad you caught it.
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