Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

[PA650]

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

Attacks on Vatican II are no more profitable than the OP's outlook. The OP seems to forget the Church also has authority and is not a democracy but rather the earthly part of a Kingdom.

I stated false spirit of Vatican II. I mentioned nothing else.

[Rockie01]

This is an interesting topic and it's sad that it's even a topic. I've seen the statement a few times that "the vatican isn't concerned with nuns'. I don't understand what that implies. However, it should be and addressing the LCWR indicates it is concerned about whatever they are doing or not doing. I have witnessed myself in a Catholic University setting the push for more freedom and superiority, abortion and the drive to let women become priests. I think that many of these women are a carry-over from the 70's however they are also influential to the newbies that are entering the religious life. They have enormous visibility within the LCWR, look at Chittester, she's done alot of damage. And what about Sr. Carol Keehan who helped President Obama push Obama Care? The radicalized nuns do not represent all women religious, but they sure do damage the image in the public eye. They are not representative of Catholic Values either, but most people won't stop to research. Sr. Carol is in a powerful position and she has misused her position to further her own agenda whatever that agenda is all the while ignoring requests from bishops for her to clarify her actions.

[Corki]

Originally Posted by trickster

Yes born Catholic...no I don't think the Church is oppressive at all! I am worried that it may be setting the direction towards becoming suppressive..when JP II ends discussions and says we can't talk about things anymore...well that is a dangerous thing to the evolution of revelation which is also informed not by old saint writings of 200-1000's of years ago but by the Spirits works on our life today... I don't think that my challenging spirit should be interpreted as feeling oppressed by any means...it is exactly cause the church was not oppressive after Vatican II that I am totally comfortable in questioning, challenging, and even offering alternative ideas and proposals with respect to theolog...as I know that I usually will get a loving response that challenges me back and points out my argument's weaknesses and therefore facilitating a stronger Catholicism within me...hope that explains me a bit better to you...

Bruce
Trickster

This is a common misunderstanding of how the Church works. The Church hasn't ever said we can't talk about ANY topic. The concern is about how a topic is discussed - especially by those who have a special responsibility (priests, religious, those operating as "official" Church organizations, etc.). They can talk about every thing they want. They can even disagree. But the CAN'T present defined Church teaching as if it was just one option amoung many when it isn't. That's just lying and when it's done publically, it can be dangerous to the faith of other Catholics. That's what gets these groups in trouble.

[Corki]

[

Originally Posted by trickster

ABSOLUTELY Corki...my question is "what exactly" is the Vatican concerned about? The Vatican wanting to ensure that the work of the nuns reflect the teachings of the church is fair and right, however, no one is being very specific (and that may also because I haven't had time to read or research everything being said yet)...on what exactly is so threatening about these women religious congregations...

That's why I posted this to see what is exciting the old boys in red dresses at the Vatican...

Bruce
Trickster

Read the document. It is fairly specific. Don't rely only on the commentary being floated in the media.

http://www.usccb.org/loader.cfm?csMo...p;pageid=55544


Here's an excerpt that gives a good idea of what some of the concerns are:

The Cardinal spoke of this issue in reference to letters
the CDF received from “Leadership Teams” of various Congregations, among them
LCWR Officers, protesting the Holy See’s actions regarding the question of women’s
ordination and of a correct pastoral approach to ministry to homosexual persons, e.g.
letters about New Ways Ministry’s conferences.

When the LCWR takes a position that "protests" the Church's positions, this is not a good sign.

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by trickster

JR, now thats more like it...when you say the following

3. The LCWR consists of approximately 60 to 100 sisters at any given time. There are thousands of sisters and nuns in the USA.

4. The document is asking that these 60 sisters who are responsible for the Conference of Women Religious do their job in a manner that is consistent with Catholic teaching and work with people who are on the same page as the Church. Not an unreasonable demand.

This certainly puts things into perspective...all I am asking is what is so threatening about this group of 60 -100 nuns? What exactly are they doing or teaching - other than speculating on potential female traits of god(ess)? How are they threatening to the Vatican? or church teaching (which for me is the same thing)? Can you give me something concrete?

Cheerz

Bruce
Trickster

Speculating on potential female traits of God is no small thing, considering that it's contrary to Revelation. They have also sponsored ongoing formation or educational programs that have promoted:

Women's ordination - which has been infallibly prohibited

Women's choice to have an abortion - also infallibly prohibited

Same-sex marriage - infallibly prohibited

Contraception - morally prohibited

Expanding Christian Spirituality beyond Jesus - How can it be Christian?

Liturgical abuse - prohibited

Failure to teach Catholic doctrine to their people in formation - doesn't make sense

[quote=Brooklyn;9244975]

Going here will give you a link to open the document and read it for yourself. I personally find it very disturbing. As pointed out here, the LCWR reprresents 80% of the Catholic women religious in the US. This is very serious and hardly "silly." This is about much much than "too many cooks in the kitchen" or "a difference of opinion." It's about the "human condition" all right, the sinful human condition. From the document:

That's one of their problems, not the Church's problem. In this sense, they don't actually represent that many sisters. They have delegates to their activities from hundreds of congregations of sisters. They do not have authority over any of those congregations. Their wording is wrong. No conference for religious has any authority over the religious, anymore than the Conference of Bishops has authority over any bishop. That's a violation of Canon Law. All that a conference for religious can do is provide a venue for the exchange of ideas and cooperation. It cannot dictate to the religious superiors.

It's also important to observe that this is not the Conference of Major Superiors of Women Religiuos. That group has power. The members of that group are all major superiors. The members of the LCWR are not always superiors. The LCWR was not meant to be for superiors only, but for anyone who wants to sign up. Just as I can sign up for the American Association of Polar Bears, but I never show up or do anything with them, I just pay annuals dues to the heck of it. If you attend one of their functions, they are not attended by thousands of sisters.

However, it does concern the Vatican that they have access to thousands of sisters. That's a very valid concern.

Addresses at the LCWR Assemblies. Addresses given during LCWR annual Assemblies manifest problematic statements and serious theological, even doctrinal errors. The Cardinal offered as an example specific passages of Sr. Laurie Brink’s address about some Religious “moving beyond the Church” or even beyond Jesus. This is a challenge not only to core Catholic beliefs; such a rejection of faith is also a serious source of scandal and is incompatible with religious life. Such unacceptable positions routinely go unchallenged by the LCWR, which should provide resources for member Congregations to foster an ecclesial vision of religious life, thus helping to correct an erroneous vision of the Catholic faith as an important exercise of charity. Some might see in Sr. Brink’s analysis a phenomenological snapshot of religious life today. But Pastors of the Church should also see in it a cry for help.

This is what I said above about the friends the keep.

Policies of Corporate Dissent. The Cardinal spoke of this issue in reference to letters the CDF received from “Leadership Teams” of various Congregations, among them LCWR Officers, protesting the Holy See’s actions regarding the question of women’s ordination and of a correct pastoral approach to ministry to homosexual persons, e.g. letters about New Ways Ministry’s conferences. The terms of the letters suggest that these sisters collectively take a position not in agreement with the Church’s teaching on human sexuality. It is a serious matter when these Leadership Teams are not providing effective leadership and example to their communities, but place themselves outside the Church’s teaching.

This again is speaking about the policies of the Conference, not of the congregations. The congregations have never made such policies. The Conference has. The congregations don't control the Conference either. Which may be part of the problem.

[JReducation]

[quote]
This is very, very serious. We are talking about the salvation of souls. The leadership of the LCWR is leading people directly away from Christ. [/;quote]

We can't assume that several thousand sisters are being led on a leash by the Conference. We have to address it the way that the Vatican has. The Conference is wrong and what it communicates to the sisters is wrong. We cannot presume that the sisters buy into it and we don't know how many do so.

Brother JR, you could not be more wrong about this being "silly", and the Vatican is obviously the first to disagree with you.

Actually, the Vatican and agree on this, if you take my meaning from what I said. By too many cooks in the kitchen I'm referring to too many people trying to dictate and opine how to fix this problem. I'm not denying the problem. By silly, I'm referring to the assumptions that people make about several thousand sisters when the Vatican did not make such statements. The Vatican's statement is about the LCWR. Not about every congregation in the USA. To imply that this is the case is silly. To imply that 80% of American sisters buy into this nonsense is also silly. It cannot be proven.

The LCWR alleges to represent 80% of American sisters. If they get one person from 80% of the religious congregations, they can pin up on their data that they have the support of 80% of those congregations. One person does not make up a congregation. When you go to their functions, you find 200 or 300 sisters out of several thousand and you're not even sure how many of those who attended the function buy into what was presented. Therefore, the Vatican has to deal with the organization that sponsors these dissenting activities, not with the individual congregations. That's what the Vatican is doing. The Vatican is not sounding the alarm that 80% of American sisters are a problem. The blogs are and forums like this are, not the Vatican. That's the silly part. That what is being said on the internet and what is being said at the Vatican and at religious houses is not the same thing. No one is keeping secrets. It's just that people are reading into things what is not there or that which is being misrepresented by the LCWR.

Not quite correct. From the LCWR website:

The Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) is an association of the leaders of congregations of Catholic women religious in the United States. The conference has more than 1500 members, who represent more than 80 percent of the 57,000 women religious in the United States. Founded in 1956, the conference assists its members to collaboratively carry out their service of leadership to further the mission of the Gospel in today’s world.

Jeanine Gramick: co-foundress of
the homosexual, lesbian
activist organization
New Ways Ministry mentioned in
the Vatican document.

I already spoke about the numbers issue above. This came out very clearly when they wrote their support for the HHR mandate. There was a rebuttal by the superiors saying that the support had come from 60 to 80 sisters who are on the leadership team of the LCWR, not from the Conference of Major Superiors who actually govern women religious and have the authority to speak for them. The LCWR is a medium for the sisters, not an authoritative voice to make decisions for the sisters. The press and the bloggers don't understand the function of the Conference.

The Vatican understands it and is rightfully concerned, because of several reasons.

1. The LCWR is providing ongoing education and formation that is non compliant with Church teaching.

2. The LCWR is speak against Church policy allegedly in the name of thousands of sisters, which misleads the faithful, like yourself in two ways. It leads one to believe that several thousand sisters are out to lunch and it leads us to believe that they have the authority to speak for the sisters, which they do not. This is hurtful to the community. We don't disagree on that.

3. The LCWR does not have the oversight of the bishops, so if the Vatican does not provide oversight, the LCWR or any other conference can derail, as the report suggests.

I don't belong to the LCWR nor am I a member of the Holy See. I can only repeat what the Vatican says. If it says that the Conference has derailed, that's all I can repeat. I can't say that several thousand sisters have derailed, because I know that the Conference DOES NOT represent that many sisters. Just because someone signs a card and mails in $50 a year does not mean that the person is actively involved. The HHR issue proved it. When the superiors spoke they contradicted what the LCWR was saying about whom they represented.

The problem with the Conference is not silly. What's silly is the explosive interpretation that people are giving this, while the Vatican and the Conference of Major Superiors of Women Religious is being very calms and very intellectual about this. They're saying to the LCWR, "Let's help you get back on track." That's a good thing. I pray that everyone does get back on the same page for the good of God's people.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

[Brooklyn]

[quote=JReducation;9245548]

This is very, very serious. We are talking about the salvation of souls. The leadership of the LCWR is leading people directly away from Christ. [/;quote]

We can't assume that several thousand sisters are being led on a leash by the Conference. We have to address it the way that the Vatican has. The Conference is wrong and what it communicates to the sisters is wrong. We cannot presume that the sisters buy into it and we don't know how many do so.

The problem with the Conference is not silly. What's silly is the explosive interpretation that people are giving this, while the Vatican and the Conference of Major Superiors of Women Religious is being very calms and very intellectual about this. They're saying to the LCWR, "Let's help you get back on track." That's a good thing. I pray that everyone does get back on the same page for the good of God's people.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

All I can say is that I could not disagree with you more, and the crisis in faith in the church, people feeling free to go against Church teaching, only 30% even believing in the Real Presence, only about 20% of people attending weekly Mass - something is seriously wrong here. The LCWR is a major symptom of this. The document issued by the Vatican states without equivocation that this is a grave and serious manner. If your assertions were true, I don't think the Vatican would be handling this matter as they are, even appointing His Excellency the Most Reverend Peter Sartain, Archbishop of Seatle, as the Archbishop Delegate who has been given the following mandate:

To revise the LCWR Statutes;
To review the LCWR plans and programs;
To create new LCWR programs for member Congregations;
To review and guide liturgical norms and texts; and
To review LCWR links with affiliated organizations

This would certainly seem to imply that the Vatican feels this about more than just a few renegade religious. How else are we to react? As I stated, souls are at stake. There is nothing more serious than that.

I completely and totally disagree with you on this one.

[clem456]

There are many many nuances that get lost sometimes in these discussions.
My sister in law is a member of Holy Family of Nazareth for 40 years now, she went to the convent at age 15. She has been a teacher, principal, couselor at a home for abused teens, foster mother for at-risk teen boys, nursing home activities director. She is the furthest thing from a traditional Catholic, is resentful of some authority and the Church hierarchy. By the same token she is not in agreement with the leftist leadership we are talking about. She would simply say she tries to love as Jesus Christ loves.

Over the years she has been at times treated badly by priests and others in male leadership, and also treated well by many others. The climate of alienation, disobedience, and sin do not simply appear out of thin air. It is surely chosen by the individual, but it is also encouraged when those -in authority- do not live authentic lives of obedience, but rather live lives of superficial observance, domination, hypocrisy. Many of us do not really understand authority and obedience the way Christ would live them. She will tell you that nuns and sisters are at times taken advantage of, taken for granted, abused by those in authority in the name of Church authority. We have discussed her resentment and rebellious attitude many times as my outlook is more traditional than hers, but she is formed in her perceptions. She has a lifetime of dealing with bishops, priests and pastors, for better or worse.

We always need to look in the mirror and live Catholic life authentically, not superficially, as we may be helping push others astray and away. As a wise priest told me once when we had a problem with the kids: If you want things to change around the house, change YOU, the rest will follow according to God's will.

[JReducation]

[quote=Brooklyn;9245589]

Originally Posted by JReducation

All I can say is that I could not disagree with you more, and the crisis in faith in the church, people feeling free to go against Church teaching, only 30% even believing in the Real Presence, only about 20% of people attending weekly Mass - something is seriously wrong here. The LCWR is a major symptom of this. The document issued by the Vatican states without equivocation that this is a grave and serious manner. If your assertions were true, I don't think the Vatican would be handling this matter as they are, even appointing His Excellency the Most Reverend Peter Sartain, Archbishop of Seatle, as the Archbishop Delegate who has been given the following mandate:

To revise the LCWR Statutes;
To review the LCWR plans and programs;
To create new LCWR programs for member Congregations;
To review and guide liturgical norms and texts; and
To review LCWR links with affiliated organizations

This would certainly seem to imply that the Vatican feels this about more than just a few renegade religious. How else are we to react? As I stated, souls are at stake. There is nothing more serious than that.

I completely and totally disagree with you on this one.

You're saying the same thing that I'm saying. The Vatican is trying to help the LCWR. It is not engaging with several hundred congregations. People on the internet seem to have the impression that the latter is the case. The Archbishop has not been given authority to intervene with the congregations and their superiors, only with the LCWR.

I already stated, several times, that the LCWR has problems. I'm not there to pinpoint them, so I have to take the Vatican's word for it, which I do.

You're reading into this intervention that the Vatican is engaging with several hundred superiors and congregations. That's not what the document is saying. It's pointing to some very serious problems within the LCWR that can trickle down into the congregations, because people hear these things coming from the LCWR and may or may not buy into it. The possibility that they may buy into it is too serious to ignore. However, no one really knows who and how many actually buy into some of these more radical dissensions. So what can the Vatican do? It can fix the source of the problem so that the dissensions don't trickle down to the sisters.

I don't disagree with the Vatican. I disagree with the way that people on the Internet are interpreting this and the spin that they are giving to it. I know that it's wishful thinking, but for once, I wish the folks who post on the Internet would limit themselves to saying, "This happened and the Vatican is doing this," and leave it at that, rather than read into it, edit it to smooth it over or add to it to make it worse.

If you go to any religious house in the country, male or female, that's exactly what you'll hear. "There is a problem at the LCWR and the Vatican has sent a representative to help them fix it." Then, the religious move on. Why? Because it has nothing to do with us. The people who work for the LCWR are the ones who have to work with the Vatican to fix the problem. The rest of us go on about our daily business.

I'm trying to help you understand why I used the term silly. Maybe it's not the right word. But when I see the reaction for or against the sisters on these posts and blogs and I compare it to what happens in religious houses, I say to myself, "If they only knew that we're very calm about this and we're keeping our noses out of it and letting the Vatican and the LCWR solve the problem." Why? Because family life, religious life, parish life, national life, etc, cannot stop because of one organization that is already being dealt with by those who can help them, if they accept the help. None of us have any control over that either. Let's pray that they do accept the help

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

[clem456]

Originally Posted by BenedictFTW

You should read the story of St Faustina. I am sure many nuns struggle with having to obey meekly. I know I would. But, most nuns know what they have to do within the convent before they take their vows. They have quite a long time to discern before making the final commitment. Obedience and meekness are fundamental qualities in a good nun. It is also better for the soul to suffer in silence.

I have only respect for those who give their lives to our Church. But the nuns in question are being told off by the Vatican for going against Church teaching.

Well ok, I'm not arguing that this leadership is way off the track, but that's not the point of my post.
Obedience and proper respect for authority are fundamental qualities for EVERY PERSON, not just the meek little nuns. Obedience is based in listening (ob - audiere, to listen to) and love. It is not a one-sided legalistic demand, although it adheres to objective truth. When we misunderstand authority and obedience, we have a problem. Maybe we participate in disobedience more than we would like to admit.

I have read Divine Mercy In My Soul from cover to cover and it changed my life. St Faustina encountered cruelty and other obstacles. Do you think the obstacles helped the cause of divine mercy? I don't think so. Her freely given obedience defnitely did, which is one of the main themes of the book.

[Marie5890]

Originally Posted by JReducation

This whole thing with the sisters is the silliest thing in the world. Allow me to share my observations.

1. There are too many cooks in the kitchen. Everyone wants to have an opinion and everyone thinks his opinion and his solutions are right. That's part of the human condition, not much we can do there, right?

2. The document that came from the Vatican DID NOT attack any group of sisters. I've held it in my hands. The document clearly says that the Leadership Conference of Women Religious has to be fixed, because of the company it keeps. The document does not speak about the women religious in America.

3. The LCWR consists of approximately 60 to 100 sisters at any given time. There are thousands of sisters and nuns in the USA.

4. The document is asking that these 60 sisters who are responsible for the Conference of Women Religious do their job in a manner that is consistent with Catholic teaching and work with people who are on the same page as the Church. Not an unreasonable demand.

5. This sisters are not superiors to the sisters in the USA. The mission of a Conference for religious is to provide a means for the religious communities and the bishops to dialogue. It also provides a means for religious communities to cooperate with each other, rather than duplicate. Finally, it provides a means of offering opportunities for ongoing formation for all religious. The Conference has no authority in the religious communities. Each community has its own government.

6. Conferences for religious exist, because bishops have no authority over religious. There has to be a way for the two bodies to talk to each other. It's much easier to speak with a few delegates elected by the larger group, than for several hundred bishops and several hundred religious superiors to try to have a conversation. That would be a nightmare.

7. The Church is not acting patriarchal or misogynistic. Every religious owes obedience to the Holy See. It just happens this in this dimension, the Holy See is masculine and in this case, it's the Conference for Women Religious that has supported and allowed some unorthodox people to present at its gatherings and whatever else they've done. If it had been the Conference for Religious Men, then that group would be receiving a visit from the Vatican. But it's not them. They're doing fine.

8. Finally, I don't know if the laity knows this or not, but these Conferences have NO AUTHORITY over religious. All authority over religious is vested in the superior and the Holy See. They are canonically erected tools, not governing bodies. It is incorrect to think that because the Vatican has sent a representative to help the tool, that the Vatican believes that the carpenter who uses the tool is damaged. He can be. But the Vatican has not said that. It has said that the tool is damaged. It has to be fixed. Some people are not going to like it. Oh well . . . obedience is never easy. I don't remember ever liking when my mother sent me to bed or demanded that I clean my room, but I sure as heck miss my mom.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Thank you BroJ, for always "instructing the uninformed" with kindness and love.

You are very good at this sprititual act of mercy.

I think many times, many of us informed lay Catholics just dont understand how the Vatican and the religious work.

From the onset of the OP and onward in the thread, it seems pretty clear to me that lacking of understanding amongst the laity has lead us to misunderstand the entire situation.

The title of the thread is misleading. The Vatican is not afraid of nuns, or religious for that matter.

The OP seems not to understand the dynamics of the situation.

[Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by clem456

Well ok, I'm not arguing that this leadership is way off the track, but that's not the point of my post.
Obedience and proper respect for authority are fundamental qualities for EVERY PERSON, not just the meek little nuns. Obedience is based in listening (ob - audiere, to listen to) and love. It is not a one-sided legalistic demand, although it adheres to objective truth. When we misunderstand authority and obedience, we have a problem. Maybe we participate in disobedience more than we would like to admit.

I have read Divine Mercy In My Soul from cover to cover and it changed my life. St Faustina encountered cruelty and other obstacles. Do you think the obstacles helped the cause of divine mercy? I don't think so. Her freely given obedience defnitely did, which is one of the main themes of the book.

The Vatican is not targeting individual nuns and sisters. They are specifically disciplining the Leadership because the Leadership has a great effect on other people. They are the ones who are leading people away from the Church and Jesus Christ. This is what the document says:

The Cardinal noted a prevalence of certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith in some of the programs and presentations sponsored by the LCWR, including theological interpretations that risk distorting faith in Jesus and his loving Father who sent his Son for the salvation of the world. Moreover, some commentaries on “patriarchy” distort the way in which Jesus has structured sacramental life in the Church; others even undermine the revealed doctrines of the Holy Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the inspiration of Sacred Scripture.

Again, we are not talking about "disagreements" or even just "obedience." We are talking about the salvation of souls. That is why I so strongly disagree with Br. JR when he says we are over reacting. These are nuns who are pushing birth control, abortion, homosexuality, women priests. How can you over react when people are acting in such a way as to send souls to hell for all eternity? They Vatican is extremely concerned about this, enough so to spend literally years on this problem. We should be at least as concerned.

[Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by Marie5890

Thank you BroJ, for always "instructing the uninformed" with kindness and love.

You are very good at this sprititual act of mercy.

I think many times, many of us informed lay Catholics just dont understand how the Vatican and the religious work.

From the onset of the OP and onward in the thread, it seems pretty clear to me that lacking of understanding amongst the laity has lead us to misunderstand the entire situation.

The title of the thread is misleading. The Vatican is not afraid of nuns, or religious for that matter.

The OP seems not to understand the dynamics of the situation.

I agree that the title of this thread is very misleading. But the OP's premise is that the Vatican needs to leave the nuns alone, he thinks they are doing fine. Anyone would have to disagree with that.

To accuse the rest of us of not understanding is, I think, at least a bit unfair. We understand that there are nuns out there who are defying the Vatican and Church teaching on many different levels and are trying to teach others to do so as well. Their actions are extremely dangerous and the Vatican had no other choice but to step in as they have done. There is a crisis in the Church on the scale of which we have never seen before. I cannot support the Holy Father enough as he tries to tackle this. The Church will ultimately be successful, but again, at the cost of how many souls?

[Marie5890]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn

But the OP's premise is that the Vatican needs to leave the nuns alone, he thinks they are doing fine. Anyone would have to disagree with that.

To accuse the rest of us of not understanding is, I think, at least a bit unfair.

I agree that the idea that things are fine is wrong. There most certainly are problems, and that is why the Vatican is setting to fix it.

As to your second point, I purposely used the word "many" for a reason. Because it's not the same as "all".

I do think "many" of the laity misunderstand. But that does not mean I think "all" of us do.

[Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by Marie5890

I agree that the idea that things are fine is wrong. There most certainly are problems, and that is why the Vatican is setting to fix it.

As to your second point, I purposely used the word "many" for a reason. Because it's not the same as "all".

I do think "many" of the laity misunderstand. But that does not mean I think "all" of us do.

What is that the many of the laity misunderstand? My understanding is that there is a very serious problem with the leadership of many women religious, that they are in direct conflict with teachings of the church and are spiritually dangerous. Is that a misunderstanding?