Why do some Catholics support legal abortion? - Page 3

Charlemagne II · #31 Apr 30, '12, 4:03 pm

Adolphus

It's not a Theocracy.

O.K., so you're a lapsed Catholic.

It isn't just people who believe in God that are against abortion. I know lots of people who don't go to church and use their common sense to know that you just don't kill your own child.

But your comment is off topic. You keep getting off topic in almost every post. We are not debating the question of whether abortion is immoral. The Church has already decided that and Catholics are supposed to believe what the Church teaches.

So why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

Please get back on topic. Why would a Catholic support legal abortion but oppose legal cruelty to newborn animals? Why would a Catholic be all for "Save the whales!" but oppose "Save the babies!"

**Bookcat** · #32 Apr 30, '12, 4:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adolphus WC

They are open to discussion in a democratic society. That's why we have the laws we do.
It's not a Theocracy.

Huh?

Who said anything about a Theocracy?

In a democratic society we are not to vote that it is ok to murder Jews or the unborn or whoever.

There is not right to murder anyone. Even in a democracy.

**Bookcat** · #33 Apr 30, '12, 4:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adolphus WC

They are open to discussion in a democratic society.

Hum....

We hold these truths to be self evident...

In our country it is recognized even in the founding documents that these are not things that are open to opinion. They are self evident.

Not given by Government ....but given by the Creator.

Adolphus WC · #34 Apr 30, '12, 4:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlemagne II

Adolphus

It's not a Theocracy.

O.K., so you're a lapsed Catholic.

It isn't just people who believe in God that are against abortion. I know lots of people who don't go to church and use their common sense to know that you just don't kill your own child.

But your comment is off topic. You keep getting off topic in almost every post. We are not debating the question of whether abortion is immoral. The Church has already decided that and Catholics are supposed to believe what the Church teaches.

So why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

Please get back on topic. Why would a Catholic support legal abortion but oppose legal cruelty to newborn animals? Why would a Catholic be all for "Save the whales!" but oppose "Save the babies!"

I am not debating whether abortion is immoral. I have stated many times that it is. What I am saying is there are other things that I find immoral that are legal. Like divorce, or gambling, prostitution etc. People have had a discourse and made laws that reflected that discourse. The discourse continues. The law may change.

I can insert my opinion into that discourse. Whether as a Catholic and/or as a citizen I think that is everyone's duty.

Now abortion is currently framed as a woman's right issue. A woman should have self determination in what happens to her body. I can say that the fetus should take precedence and state the immorality of the inverse. Our society has determined that woman's rights superseded those of the fetus. I respect our democracy and know that everyone doesn't share my morality. So I respect the law of the land as it stands.

I don't want to live under another religions laws - Sharia law for example. So I understand that leeway must be given in a free society.

Free speech is an example. I can despise some speech but understand that for my free speech to be respected I must respect theirs. If my religious freedom is to be respected I have to respect that others don't share it.

**Bookcat** · #35 Apr 30, '12, 4:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adolphus WC

There is a difference between morality and law. Divorce is legal yet immoral.

Not all of what is called "divorce" is immoral.

CCC:

2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.

If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.

**Bookcat** · #36 Apr 30, '12, 4:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adolphus WC

I am not debating whether abortion is immoral. I have stated many times that it is. What I am saying is there are other things that I find immoral that are legal. Like divorce, or gambling, prostitution etc. People have had a discourse and made laws that reflected that discourse. The discourse continues. The law may change.

An unjust law is simply by definition-- not a law.

No law can be made to permit abortion. Period.

It is the among the most fundamental rights possessed by everyone everywhere.

And is not given by Government and if any law is made permitting abortion it is an unjust law and thus no real law.

Just as the law stating Jews are to be rounded up and murdered was a very very unjust law and not a law by a crime against human nature et al

Adolphus WC · #37 Apr 30, '12, 4:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookcat

Not all of what is called "divorce" is immoral.

CCC:

2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.

If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.

Mark 10:7-9VeritasBible.com

**Bookcat** · #38 Apr 30, '12, 4:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adolphus WC

Mark 10:7-9VeritasBible.com

Yes that is true. And not contrary to what I noted from the Catechism. The Catechism states the same in various places.

Adolphus WC · #39 Apr 30, '12, 4:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookcat

An unjust law is simply by definition-- not a law.

No law can be made to permit abortion. Period.

It is the among the most fundamental rights possessed by everyone everywhere.

And is not given by Government and if any law is made permitting abortion it is an unjust law and thus no real law.

Just as the law stating Jews are to be rounded up and murdered was a very very unjust law and not a law by a crime against human nature et al

In a democracy it can and was.

**Bookcat** · #40 Apr 30, '12, 4:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adolphus WC

In a democracy it can and was.

It no more has the ability to make such a law than it has the ability to make a law that says that the earth shall not be round.

Such is not a valid law.

**Bookcat** · #41 Apr 30, '12, 4:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookcat

Hum....

We hold these truths to be self evident...

In our country it is recognized even in the founding documents that these are not things that are open to opinion. They are self evident.

Not given by Government ....but given by the Creator.

tarboy · #42 Apr 30, '12, 4:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlemagne II

Would these same Catholics also support legal bank robbing, or legal lynching, or even legal perjury?

Your examples don't work
Legal bank robbing could be hostile takeover (not a sin by itself)
Legal lynching could be the state or federal death penalty

Since perjury is a criminal offense, 'legal' perjury cannot exist.

I don't support abortion but I do respect what is legal. I wonder if other Catholics feel the same.

Adolphus WC · #43 Apr 30, '12, 4:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookcat

It no more has the ability to make such a law than it has the ability to make a law that says that the earth shall not be round.

Such is not a valid law.

Abortion law isn't changing physics. It simply states that a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy. The morality is what is debated.

**Bookcat** · #44 Apr 30, '12, 4:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adolphus WC

Abortion law isn't changing physics. It simply states that a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy. The morality is what is debated.

Life is yes suprephysics. It is of an even higher order than the roundness of the earth.

**Bookcat** · #45 Apr 30, '12, 4:46 pm

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1902 Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a "moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility":

A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a2.htm#1902

We are to respect just laws....such is not a just law is a kind of violence...

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