Shroud of Turin - Page 17

patrick457 · #**241** May 14, '12, 2:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by anrmenchaca47

Are you sure its the one used to bury him and not the one Veronica wiped his face with on his way to Calvary?

Well, the earliest versions of the Veronica story put the incident during Jesus' ministry: Veronica, the woman formerly with the issue of blood, wanted a portrait of Jesus and made all the necessary arrangements. Jesus caught wind of her plan and decided to give her something better: He washed His face and dried it on the cloth on which His image was going to be painted, thereby leaving an imprint of His features on it.

patrick457 · #**242** May 14, '12, 2:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by inkaneer

Well that should get this thread locked. Seems adults can't have a discussion without the children butting in.

As one who is in between childhood and adulthood, I find the comment about children to be rather offensive.

But to be serious: lighten up!

**GEddie** · #**243** May 14, '12, 3:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick457

As one who is in between childhood and adulthood, I find the comment about children to be rather offensive.

But to be serious: lighten up!

Indeed, aren't we supposed to become like children?

For that matter, on the Shroud (back on topic) ever notice how our LORD's eyes though closed in death, are huge and ...... Childlike??

ICXC NIKA

inkaneer · #**244** May 15, '12, 6:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick457

As one who is in between childhood and adulthood, I find the comment about children to be rather offensive.

But to be serious: lighten up!

Well, if you found it to be offensive then I guess that was very childish of you, sonny. See I can lighten up!

humble_catholic · #**245** May 15, '12, 11:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by anrmenchaca47

Are you sure its the one used to bury him and not the one Veronica wiped his face with on his way to Calvary?

If you read the forensic examination of the sudarium and the shroud you will see that it's forensically impossible for the sudarium to be the veil of Veronica for one reason. If that sudarium was used to wipe our Lords face while he was walking, the congruent blood points would never have matched up perfectly with the blood spots and flows on the shroud of Turin. The fact that the shroud's blood flows around the head image match up perfectly with the sudarium eliminate the sudarium from being the same cloth as the veil of Veronica, and this isn't even taking into account the image on the veil of veronica.

John jacksons wife Debbie was one of the first researchers to find out through studying ancient Jewish sources that when a face hanging on a cross is either bleeding profusely or is disfigured they would wrap the face with a head cloth to keep the people viewing or passing by to not see such a brutal site.

Many people overlook this key info found by Debbie Jackson and it was also her roots as an orthodox Jew that helped her to find it. Interesting to note that during her study of the shroud she ended up converting to Catholicism.

Interesting isnt it

Praise God that he would this relic for the modern day thomases

humble_catholic · #**246** May 16, '12, 12:20 am

Let's take care of the wrist issue. I used to have a video under my favorites from the spokesperson of the sturp team Kenneth Stevenson. Great YouTube video but I can't find it anymore. From forensic research it seems like the nail went through an area called the space of destot, and when this area was pierced, the nail also pierced the median nerve which caused the thumbs to flex inward. This was also tested on human cadavers. I might also add that the space of destot is the spot in that area that has been shown to hold the full weight of a crucified man.

Here is another video that gives a good general history of the shroud and some very interesting facts surrounding the manipulation of who got control over who would conduct the c14 tests. You had 3 people who eventually got control over the tests and 2 were secular atheists and one was a cardinal ( cardinal ballestrero), who despite all of the good evidence presented to him about the shroud stated publicly that he always thought the shroud was a fake. The 3 people thencut a piec e of the shroud on camera, but then did something very unexpected. When they went into the too
With the c14 dating device they barred the cameras from coming in with them.
Here is the video talking about all of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrmA1...e_gdata_player

There is also a new documentary on the shroud which focuses only on the c14 tests. Seems like the secular world will do anything to prevent the truth about the shroud to come out. I can't find the documentary on YouTube because it's new , but it should be explosive.

humble_catholic · #**247** May 16, '12, 2:38 am

Wrong on every single on of your points.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrmA1...e_gdata_player
That letter was debunked a long time ago, plus it had no signature on it, and this video does a great job in exposing that letter. On top of that we have a pic of the shroud complete with the 4 poker holes and 3 way herringbone weave in the late 1100's in the Hungarian pray codex. This alone without the evidence in the video totally debunks that letter. It seems that you are presenting old, stale debunked data that is totally wrong.

also forgot to add this bit of info on the Rogers research chemical analysis paper. It passed peer review in the journal thermochemica acta. I couldn't put this in the right place on my post in my edit as I'm on my iPod lol.

The c14 dating was debunked a long time ago by ray Rogers of Los alamos labs when he did the chemical analysis of that piece and compared it to the chamiso alaysis of the shroud image area and they were of totally different chemical makeup. Ray also found cotton from the c14 testing piece which has shown to be from a invisible reweave. Textile experts also knew about this technique which was dine in that time era. When ray did the vanillin tests on the shroud and it came back negative for vanillin, which showed rogers that the shroud was way older then the debunked c14 tests showed. In fact vanillin takes between 1300 and 3000 years to deplete, which is the age range Rogers gave to the shroud.

Your also wrong about no info on the shroud before the 14th century, as the Hungarian pray codex alone from the late 1100's shatters your assertion, this is not counting that it was very likely called the mandolin from the 6th century onward.

You also forgot to mention that almost all the iconography from the 6th century only have many many congruent points when overlaid over the shroud. It just about matched perfectly with the shroud.

Your last point is a laugher because there have been numerous peer reviewed research papers that specifically show that there is no point on the shroud.
The only person that said he found paint on the shroud was goofy Walter mccrone who broke protocol with all the other sturp team members when he didn't share his info with them. None of the other scientists with much more sophisticated equipment than mccrone found any paint at all.

When mccrone submitted it for peer review he was getting thrashed by the peer review board for his imaginary pseudo science and were about to fail his research paper when he withdrew his research paper from peer review and decided instead to put it in his own microscopy magazine of which he was the owner and editor and chief of.

Next time my friend try posting your pseudo-information on a forum where no one has read the actual peer reviewed research on the shroud. You might be able to get away with it there but not here.

Your supposed evidenced sounds like it was regurgitated from a Joe nickel site .
It's almost laughable to see the irrational skeptics of the shroud use the old and tires info that's been debunked many times by people like me and others who have really done their shroud research.

Now I can't wait to take the John Jackson advanced shroud course in Colorado lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candide West

The thing which is so amazing about the Shroud of Turin is that it continues to capture people attention even though it's been well and truly debunked. I guess this is just a case of wishful thinking and spin (it does make an exciting story).

I'll briefly summarise the available information about the shroud that I know of.*

- there is not one explicit mention of it in any literature for well over a thousand years after the events of the bible.

- in 1988 three laboratories carried out carbon dating on samples from the cloth and all gave dates of manufacture in the 13th or 14th century.

-*Pierre d'Arcis, wrote about the shroud towards the end of the 14th century after it was first displayed. He said that the matter had been investigated by a Bishop at the time - one Henri de Poitiers - and that he

"after diligent inquiry and examination, discovered how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it, to wit, that it was a work of human skill and not miraculously wrought or bestowed."

So it seems pretty conclusive all things considered.*

humble_catholic · #**248** May 16, '12, 9:22 am

Sorry for all the typos in my last post. This iPod keyboard is hard to work with lol

brb3 · #**249** May 16, '12, 6:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick457

To be honest, I'm not such a fan of the 'radiation photograph' theory either: at the moment I'm leaning more toward the theory that the image was formed in a natural way by the gases that escape from a decomposing dead body

Except, Christ's body did not see corruption [processes].

brb3 · #**250** May 16, '12, 7:30 pm

Patrick --

And, since we now know you believe it the burial cloth of Christ ...... you best give up that decomposition theory, and revert back to the 'true light, from true light' reality

humble_catholic · #**251** May 16, '12, 7:45 pm

The theory that it was caused by gases from decomposing gases from a dead corpse was debunked in the 80's by the sturp team first and they were the only scientists of that time to physically handle the shroud.

gases from a decomposed body have never been shown to cause X-rays and we can plainly see that the hands, parts of the wrist, part of the head and part of the femur all sow bone.

The other problem with the decomposed gas theory is if it were possible is that it should have caused side images, but it doesn't show it at all. If the gas theory was true there would have been massive distortion in the image itself. Remember guys, the shroud was wrapped around a body. For one thing the image would have shown this wrinkling through a lack of distortion. Second the back of the image doesn't show the body pressed onto the stone surface it was laid on.

The best explanation for this is that the body wasnt pressed up against the surface of the tomb. It seems that the body was most likely floating between the top and bottom of the shroud . That means no gravity.

There is a excerpt from the DVD the fabric of time that explains this.
I'll try to find it

humble_catholic · #**252** May 16, '12, 8:20 pm

The vaporgraph (gases from the decomposing corpse) theory was one of the first theories totally debunked and here are some reasons for this.
If this is what reallyhappened then you would have seen side images, but instead you only see a front and back theory. Remember that the shroud was wrapped around the body and if gases escaped from the body itself it would have caused an image for both sides of the body.

This is also debunked by the forensic evidence, as the experts who studied the image show us that the body was not on the shroud for more then 40 hours tops.

On top of that gases escaping from a corpse could never cause xray images of the hands, wrist, head and femur area, all are present in the shroud of turin.

Patrick you should go to the peer reviewed shroud research papers and not some pseudo-scientific skeptic site that isnt presenting all of the scientific evidence thats been available for over 30 years and more. Plus a vaporgraph has never been shown to cause a positive image where there is a negative

The fact that there is only a front and back image with almost no distortion of the shroud image is amazing. For this to take place, it would mean that the shroud was not on the body when the image was formed, because if it was wrapped around the body the distortion it would have caused would have shown up on the image, but instead it shows the complete opposite. The only explanation that makes sense is that the body was not on the shroud but was hovering inbetween the top and bottom parts of the shroud. This means no gravity was present at the point that the image was formed.
This is also probably why there is 3d spacial distance encoded in the shroud image which was found when a picture of the shroud was passed through the vp8 image analyzer. The vp8 is avery sofisticated piece of equipment which is used to map out spacial distance in the terrain of the moon and mars.

This part of the dvd fabric of time will explain the lack of distortion a bit better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbl4EmoH_jg

This also fits right in line with what the ENEA group of scientists are saying. That the only way they could duplicate this image with just a few of it's unique aspects is with a powerfull UV Laser and for them to be able to create the full body image it would take a laser the size of a 5 story building with 33,000 billion watts of energy.
WE DONT CURRENTLY HAVE THIS TECHNOLOGY.

The most powerfull laser we have right now I believe is one with 2 billion watts.

humble_catholic · #**253** May 16, '12, 8:21 pm

my messages arent getting posted?

**GEddie** · #**254** May 16, '12, 8:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by humble_catholic

If you read the forensic examination of the sudarium and the shroud you will see that it's forensically impossible for the sudarium to be the veil of Veronica for one reason. If that sudarium was used to wipe our Lords face while he was walking, the congruent blood points would never have matched up perfectly with the blood spots and flows on the shroud of Turin. The fact that the shroud's blood flows around the head image match up perfectly with the sudarium eliminate the sudarium from being the same cloth as the veil of Veronica, and this isn't even taking into account the image on the veil of veronica.

John jacksons wife Debbie was one of the first researchers to find out through studying ancient Jewish sources that when a face hanging on a cross is either bleeding profusely or is disfigured they would wrap the face with a head cloth to keep the people viewing or passing by to not see such a brutal site.

Many people overlook this key info found by Debbie Jackson and it was also her roots as an orthodox Jew that helped her to find it. Interesting to note that during her study of the shroud she ended up converting to Catholicism.

Interesting isnt it

Praise God that he would this relic for the modern day thomases

So victims of crucifixion had their face covered, like hanging victims in the Old West?

Was this done while alive, or during the entombment?

Is there a link for any of this, since I'd never heard of it before.

ICXC NIKA

**GEddie** · #**255** May 16, '12, 8:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by humble_catholic

If you read the forensic examination of the sudarium and the shroud you will see that it's forensically impossible for the sudarium to be the veil of Veronica for one reason. If that sudarium was used to wipe our Lords face while he was walking, the congruent blood points would never have matched up perfectly with the blood spots and flows on the shroud of Turin. The fact that the shroud's blood flows around the head image match up perfectly with the sudarium eliminate the sudarium from being the same cloth as the veil of Veronica, and this isn't even taking into account the image on the veil of veronica.

John jacksons wife Debbie was one of the first researchers to find out through studying ancient Jewish sources that when a face hanging on a cross is either bleeding profusely or is disfigured they would wrap the face with a head cloth to keep the people viewing or passing by to not see such a brutal site.

Many people overlook this key info found by Debbie Jackson and it was also her roots as an orthodox Jew that helped her to find it. Interesting to note that during her study of the shroud she ended up converting to Catholicism.

Interesting isnt it

Praise God that he would this relic for the modern day thomases

Do you have a link for this? I had never heard of crucifixion victims having their faces covered.

ICXC NIKA.