The EF "doesn't seem Catholic"

EcceAgnusDei · #1 May 3, '12, 3:25 pm

A few months ago I invited a devout Catholic family to attend a Solemn High Mass. The children are very active in their parish, the family goes on retreats, etc, etc, but they had never been to the EF. Afterwards, while discussing the Mass, the 17 year old son said that what he saw didn't seem Catholic. He didn't mean it in a negative way at all; what he meant was that it was so different from his experiences with the OF (as commonly celebrated in our diocese) that he found it hard to reconcile the two as being the same religion.

I bring up this story NOT to pit one form against the other or to say anything about superiority/inferiority, so please don't go there. They are two forms of the same Rite as decreed by the Holy Father. But sometimes it seems to me that some people want to downplay the differences between the two forms, when in fact the difference in the experience of the two forms (in the pews, as commonly celebrated) is great. One would expect great differences between Rites, but it seems surprising to find them within a Rite.

Why do you think this is? Is it inherent in the forms? Causation vs. correlation? Is it positive, negative? Does it matter?

Thoughts?

+ PAX

wasserfall · #2 May 3, '12, 4:07 pm

The only thought that comes to my mind is that the only possible conclusion one could derive from his comment is that his regular parish mass isn't very Catholic.

MarkThompson · #3 May 3, '12, 4:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EcceAgnusDei

But sometimes it seems to me that some people want to downplay the differences between the two forms, when in fact the difference in the experience of the two forms (in the pews, as commonly celebrated) is great. One would expect great differences between Rites, but it seems surprising to find them within a Rite.

Then again, I wonder what a person would have said if he attended Solemn High Masses -- with asperges, incense, deacon and subdeacon and servers, Gregorian and polyphonic choirs, etc. -- all his life, and one day was taken to a Low Mass in some dumpy little chapel or hotel conference room. Is it so obvious that he would say, "Surely these are the same rite"? Would popular misconception on this point make any difference?

TimothyH · #4 May 3, '12, 4:14 pm

These discussions serve no purpose other than to argue whether one guy is more Catholic than the next. Two posts in and it has already started.

-Tim-

MarkThompson · #5 May 3, '12, 4:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wasserfall

The only thought that comes to my mind is that the only possible conclusion one could derive from his comment is that his regular parish mass isn't very Catholic.

And in just the same way, when Byzantines attend a Latin Mass and find that it isn't much like their usual Divine Liturgy, the only conclusion to be drawn is that the Latin Mass isn't very Catholic.

... er, isn't it?

TimothyH · #6 May 3, '12, 4:17 pm

Maybe the Church should just repeal the 17th Chapter of John's Gospel.

OraLabora · #7 May 3, '12, 4:19 pm

If you were brought up in one form the other will seem foreign, at least as they are usually done these days.

On the other hand, an OF Mass at a Benedictine monastery, especially one still using Latin, would still feel foreign to the average OF parishioner. On the other hand, it would not feel so much different from the EF for someone not in the know.

I've seen people on this forum think a Latin OF Mass was EF. It's not so much the form but rather lack of adherence to the true "spirit of Vatican II". You know, the one that asked to retain Latin, give pride of place to Gregorian chant... something Benedictines have managed to achieve.

Oneofthewomen · #8 May 3, '12, 4:22 pm

What a horrible comment!

Quote:

Originally Posted by wasserfall

The only thought that comes to my mind is that the only possible conclusion one could derive from his comment is that his regular parish mass isn't very Catholic.

I am the same age as the missal of Paul VI, and it is the only Mass I have ever known. I have seen them done very well, with chant, Latin, incense, all the bells & smells, and I have seen them wraught with abuses, and the one thing I always knew was that, even at it's worst, the Mass was Catholic, and being celebrated by people who thought that what they were doing was the "pastoral thing" to do. Not that I am saying it is correct, or even acceptable, but it is what it is.

That said, I have to concur with the opinion of the young person mentioned in the OP. I have been to a few EF Masses, high & low, and while I appreciate them for their timeless beauty, I felt more like I was watching a play than actually attending/participating in a Mass.

I am happy that the Holy Father has allowed the EF to be available for those who find it spiritually uplifting. I don't find it to be that way for me.

wasserfall · #9 May 3, '12, 4:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkThompson

And in just the same way, when Byzantines attend a Latin Mass and find that it isn't much like their usual Divine Liturgy, the only conclusion to be drawn is that the Latin Mass isn't very Catholic.

... er, isn't it?

Funnily enough I've never heard of an Eastern Catholic who, having attended a Latin Mass, said that it didn't seem very Catholic.

The comment of the young man in the original post wasn't that it was different, rather that it didn't seem Catholic.

wasserfall · #10 May 3, '12, 4:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oneofthewomen

What a horrible comment!

I am the same age as the missal of Paul VI, and it is the only Mass I have ever known.

My comment was not about the OF mass at all -- rather about how the mass was celebrated at that young man's home parish.

Oneofthewomen · #11 May 3, '12, 4:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wasserfall

My comment was not about the OF mass at all -- rather about how the mass was celebrated at that young man's home parish.

And it is still horrible because it is an assumption.

Julia Mae · #12 May 3, '12, 5:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EcceAgnusDei

Why do you think this is?

It's about what you are used to. The boy identifies "Catholic" with his own lifelong experience. I would never go to an EF Mass. To me, not Catholic. But people who grew up with it, don't find the OF very Catholic. It's just subjective.

AMDG1 · #13 May 3, '12, 5:10 pm

The teenager reacted as I would have expected...they DO seem different because they ARE different. We can argue how/why (but please don't folks, it's been done elsewhere ad nauseam)...but the bottom line is while both are equally valid, they are also both different in form.

Buy the kid a 1962 missal and invite him back.

Or...invite him to an OF Latin high mass, it will feel different yet familiar too.