abdominal pregnancy

[True Compassion]

Originally Posted by choose to love

FWIW, I do not see any judgment in any of the comments here. I actually think the discussion about what to do should involve those who are not experiencing/have not experienced an ectopic pregnancy, precisely because the emotions involved in such a situation are so intense. Those who are not emotionally invested in a particular scenario may be able to see things that those who are emotionally invested cannot. Bearing in mind, here we are not commenting on any particular woman having such a pregnancy.

Wth regret, your post illustrates the lack of genuine sincerity and care which is evident from some people who are posting on this issue. I pray for you and your growth and understanding, sincerely,

[choose to love]

@true compassion: How?

To me, the issue of how one treats a woman who is actually experiencing an ectopic pregnancy, and the compassion/empathy one would need to exhibit in such an actual real-life situation, is markedly different from discussing in the abstract on a public discussion board the courses of action that may or may not be moral and licit in the abstract event of such a pregnancy. What error do you see in my analysis?

I agree with mgoforth that it is a legitmate subject for discussion.

In any event, thank you for your prayers.

[True Compassion]

Originally Posted by choose to love

@true compassion: How?

To me, the issue of how one treats a woman who is actually experiencing an ectopic pregnancy, and the compassion/empathy one would need to exhibit in such an actual real-life situation, is markedly different from discussing in the abstract on a public discussion board the courses of action that may or may not be moral and licit in the abstract event of such a pregnancy. What error do you see in my analysis?

I agree with mgoforth that it is a legitmate subject for discussion.

In any event, thank you for your prayers.

It is the manner in which this situation is being discussed which is problematic. The whole picture is not being taken into account and comments lack not only knowledge about this situation but also genuine concern. And yes, this should be evident, even when discussing this in the abstract. Otherwise, as Catholics, our humanity is taken out of the equation. In total, even the tone of your post lacks sincerity and I leave it to the moderator to determine the best course of action regarding this thread.

Again, I pray for your growth and understanding - though I hope you will never be faced with, or be affected by, this circumstance. If you ever are, I doubt you would like to be the subject of such ivory tower debate which lacks insight and compassion.

Sincerely,

[Rence]

Here's a little bit of information on abdominal pregnancy, for those who don't know what it is: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/557082_5

Ectopic pregnancies are those that occur outside the uterus. Tubal pregnancy is one of them. Abdominal pregnancy is another, and even more rare than tubal pregnancy.

What's interesting in a scary kind of way is that some have happened after hysterectomy

Obviously, if the woman is in an emergency situation due to hemorrhaging and her life is in immediate danger, the fetus will be removed. The Church doesn't forbid life saving interventions and doesn't expect a woman to bleed out on the floor of an emergency room without any intervention or medical care.

If hemorrhage hasn't happened yet, treatment will depend on many factors, including where implantation occurs and the direct effect on the woman as a result of it. It's possible the fetus might develop to a point of viability and can be removed and put in the NICU.

If someone is stressing thinking over this question, calling the National Catholic Bioethics Center might help. Obviously if one is in an emergency situation already, there won't be time to call or think about it.

[choose to love]

@true: Well, I imagine we are at the agreeing to disagree stage.

Could you perhaps provide an example for how such a discussion could be framed "with genuine concern", or for the appropriate manner for it to be discussed? I am trying to understand your viewpoint.

[True Compassion]

Originally Posted by choose to love

@true: Well, I imagine we are at the agreeing to disagree stage.

Could you perhaps provide an example for how such a discussion could be framed "with genuine concern", or for the appropriate manner for it to be discussed? I am trying to understand your viewpoint.

The mere fact that you have to ask how to show genuine concern whilst debating this intrinsically emotive issue, speaks volumes. My advice would be to go out into the world and experience life more and meet face-to-face with people who have went through the trauma of ectopic pregnancy before debating the issue in an extremely objective, rational and at times, flipppant manner.

This will be my final post on this thread which I have - regretfully - happened upon. I will however be taking my concerns regarding the manner in which this issue has been discussed here directly to the Church.

Shaking the proverbial dust from my feet......sincerely and with prayers,

[choose to love]

OK, to all: Am I out of line in this thread? I really have not perceived that I have been, but if I have a blind spot, let me know.

[1ke]

Originally Posted by choose to love

OK, to all: Am I out of line in this thread?

In a word, no.

[choose to love]

All right, thanks guys.

[Listener]

I find these hair-splitting arguments rather ridiculous myself. There is no way one of these pregnancies is going to survive, so to my mind, they belong in the category of killing in self defense.

The problem is that they keep coming up with new medical procedures all of the time. There is no way that the Church can analyze all of these procedures and do these hair-splitting declarations of what is moral and what is not.

Can you imagine the following situation.

Doctor: Mrs. Jones, you are going to bleed to death if we ignore this, so I'm prescribing a pill that will reduce the dangerous swelling in your internal organs.

Mrs. Jones: Doctor, I'm not sure this is a morally correct procedure. Can you contact the Vatican and see what they say?

By the time Mrs. Jones has gone through her hair-splitting options of what is morally correct in this situation, she ends up bleeding to death.

It kind of reminds me of the situation where Jesus asked the disciples what they would do if an ox fell into a pit on the Sabbath.

And yes, if there are any women here who have suffered abdominal pregnancies, I'm sure they need compassion rather than judgment.

[Cecilia_Dympna]

Originally Posted by Cecilia_Dympna

But surely taking medication to dissolve the foetus would be preferable than an operation to remove the tube as the mother's fertility will be unaffected and she will be spared the risk of a major operation? The effects to the baby will be the same either way.

Hi. I posted this message t'other day, and I wondered what folk thought. I don't understand why taking medication to dissolve the embryo when the aim is to save the mother's life by removing the ectopic pregnancy is different to removing the tube (and the embryo) when the aim is to save the mother's life by removing the ectopic pregnancy. The result to the baby (loss of life) is the same either way. The aim and intention of the procedure is the same either way (save the mother's life). But the effects to the mother are widely different - loss of tube is a huge effect on her fertility and a general anaesthetic for a big operation is a big risk. Thank you.

[Catholic80]

Originally Posted by True Compassion

....and sometimes the 'logical' analysis of issues which you have no insight into in a human sense, is not necessarily right......

Please show some respect for those people who do - sadly - have insight into this extremely difficult situation and stop posting about this specific topic. You - regretfully - give the impression of judging rather than caring for your fellow human being.

I'm assuming this post you wrote was in regards to my post since you commented on my use of the word, "logical."

How is it that I have no insight into this situation? My post reiterates the current bioethical teaching on the matter of ectopic pregnancies and the like. There is a humane way to treat a dying person, and an inhumane way. The baby in the fallopian tube or abdomen, is, in essence, a dying person. They need to be removed from the harmful situation, but death is inevitable either way.

That baby, even though they are dying, should still be treated with the utmost dignity and respect that is owed to every human being. To simply kill it with a pill is morally wrong. I didn't simply come up with this on my own... this is the consensus amongst bioethethical teaching.

We don't want the unborn child to die. It's the sad consequence of first removing it from harm. A pill directly kills the child. The intent is to first kill the child and then remove it. That's immoral. It may be easier and less evasive, but it is immoral. Assisted suicide may be quicker and easier than letting a suffering person die slowly, but assisted suicide is immoral because the intent is to kill them. The two situations are very similar.

No where in my post did I make a judgement about anybody. I'm sorry you read into that. There is a difference between defining a moral and immoral action and judging. Christ defined immoral actions all the time. He loved the prostitute; he also told her to "sin no more." But very often today, people don't want to be told what is moral or immoral, and if someone does tell them, they try and justify themselves by accusing the other person of judging, when, in fact, the only person who is judging anyone is them.

When someone defines a moral or immoral action, it is out of love for the good of the other person. A mother doesn't want her child to harm themselves, so she tells them when they are doing something immoral and she teaches them what the correct moral action should be. [ex: "Don't take drugs, eat healthy and exercise."] She tells her children this to help them because she loves them. She isn't judging them.

When I say, "aborting a child in the fallopian tubes with a pill is immoral and explain why surgical removal is the better way" I say it out of love that if a woman finds herself in this situation, that she understands which is the moral or immoral way to handle this delicate and emotional situation. Many women don't know, and I've talked to a woman before who did take the abortificient pill out of ignorance. When she had learned (on her own) that the moral route would have been surgery, she was very upset and worried that she had sinned. But she had followed the doctors advice out of ignorance, and therefore, not guilty of any sin. But now she is glad that she knows. It's better to know beforehand then after. The more we are educated, the more freedom we have to make the moral choice.


P.S. I also had an aunt who had an abdominal pregnancy... so even though I have not gone through one myself, I am not far removed from the situation.

[tabycat]

Originally Posted by True Compassion

It is the manner in which this situation is being discussed which is problematic. The whole picture is not being taken into account and comments lack not only knowledge about this situation but also genuine concern. And yes, this should be evident, even when discussing this in the abstract. Otherwise, as Catholics, our humanity is taken out of the equation. In total, even the tone of your post lacks sincerity and I leave it to the moderator to determine the best course of action regarding this thread.

Again, I pray for your growth and understanding - though I hope you will never be faced with, or be affected by, this circumstance. If you ever are, I doubt you would like to be the subject of such ivory tower debate which lacks insight and compassion.

Sincerely,

There is no way on this board to know what any other poster has gone through in their life. Some one does not have lost a child (or unborn baby) may be, in their own life,just as compassionit as one who has lost a child.

[underacloud]

Originally Posted by 1ke

In a word, no.

Seconded.

There is nothing wrong with abstract discussion of difficult topics and this forum is the appropriate place for such discussions. Moreover, I haven't read anything that suggests a lack of concern or emotional understanding.

It is also wrong to suggest that only someone who has been through a situation ought to be able to offer opinion on it. If I am diagnosed with cancer, I discuss this with an oncologist; it is immaterial to me whether said oncologist has actually had cancer themselves.

As another poster suggested, if the abstract moral considerations of this issue cause a reader some distress, they would do well to stay away from this thread.