John 20:19 - Who was actually present?

[JonathonofOhio]

Originally Posted by thistle

You are the first person EVER that I have heard of who seems to think there were more than the Apostles when Jesus appeared in the room after he rose. I haven't heard or read anything from scholars, theologians, the clergy, the Church Fathers or whoever with the same view as you.

Read Acts Chapter 1.

[bmonk]

Originally Posted by JonathonofOhio

Just read Acts 1. It tells you who was in the upper room. There were definitely others there besides the 11-- Mary was there. It also tells you that it was the Apostles who were given the commandments (instructions). Jesus appeared to them and instructed them for 40 days, but the bible is mostly absent of what all he taught them during this time. Most of the instructions are recorded elsewhere and are passed on through Sacred Tradition. It is definitely quite clear that others were there, but it was only the Apostles that received the instructions that were to be carried out. I'd have to assume that one of the instructions Jesus gave was in regards to apostolic succession since they elected Joseph Barsabbas to replace Judas.

But the gathering in Acts 1 was not the gathering in John 20:19. John 20:19 comes on the evening of Easter, the day Jesus rose from the dead. Acts 1 describes the group after the Ascension, 40 days after Easter, and seems rather larger, with 120 persons present. Would they have all been together as early as Easter Day, since the disciples had been scattered on Holy Thursday-Good Friday night, and in no mood to gather in large groups after that, at least not until the news of the Resurrection had time to spread for several days?

It might be more to the point to cite Luke 24:13-49, when the two disciples journey to Emmaus. It is also on Easter Day (24:13, 21), and we know the two disciples, including one named Cleopas, not among the Eleven, returned to the others in the Upper Room. These included the Eleven, and others with them (24:33)--but we don't know who those others were, apart from Cleopas.

[Julia Mae]

All Apostles were disciples. All disciples were not Apostles.

Disciple means a follower or a student of and included many people, men and women. The group that followed Jesus included disciples not Apostles as we know from Acts when they have to replace Judas and speak of choosing candidates who have "been with us from the beginning." (Doing this from memory, so the quote might not be exact.) One thing that is mentioned in the Gospels is that there were women who followed Jesus around, but no women were Apostles. And after all, who did Jesus choose the Apostles from? His disciples.

Who was in the Upper Room? The disciples following Jesus at that time. We don't know who they were, exactly.

Every reference to disciple in the NT can be found here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G3101&t=KJV

[JonathonofOhio]

Originally Posted by bmonk

But the gathering in Acts 1 was not the gathering in John 20:19. John 20:19 comes on the evening of Easter, the day Jesus rose from the dead. Acts 1 describes the group after the Ascension, 40 days after Easter, and seems rather larger, with 120 persons present. Would they have all been together as early as Easter Day, since the disciples had been scattered on Holy Thursday-Good Friday night, and in no mood to gather in large groups after that, at least not until the news of the Resurrection had time to spread for several days?

It might be more to the point to cite Luke 24:13-49, when the two disciples journey to Emmaus. It is also on Easter Day (24:13, 21), and we know the two disciples, including one named Cleopas, not among the Eleven, returned to the others in the Upper Room. These included the Eleven, and others with them (24:33)--but we don't know who those others were, apart from Cleopas.

Acts 1 specifically states that it was 40 days that Jesus spent with them while they were staying in Jerusalem prior to his ascension and AFTER his resurrection. It records his ascension in verse 9-11. Then in verse 12-13 it says they went back where they were staying, and lists the apostles and mentions a few others.

I stand by what I said, as there is no reason to believe that the place mentioned in John is different than the place mentioned in Acts.

I don't understand why this matters that other were there though. It doesn't mean that they received the same authority as the Apostles. All Apostles are disciples, but not all disciples are Apostles.

[PJM]

=joshua_b;9259394]John 20:19-23 shows Jesus comissioning the priesthood. Tradition tells us that it was the Apostles in the upper room, but every translation I have read says "disciples". Some translations use the words "THE disciples", which gives implication to it being the remaining 11.

Any apologetic response that would sufficiently qualify the disciples locked away to be the Apostles, to the exclusion of any other disciples?

There is much evidence that the term Disciples in many cases clearly meant "Apostles" specifically:

Luke.6: 13 "And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles"

Mt. 10::1-8 "And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb'edee, and John his brother; ... These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans,
but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ... Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons."

Even in the verse you quote if it returned to its context of the events follwing immediately after the Resurrection; the evidence is clear to whom Christ is spealking.

Jn. 20: 1-3, “Now on the first day of the week Mary Mag'dalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. So she ran, and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him." Peter then came out with the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb"….

v17 “Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Vs. 19-24 “On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.”

Jn. 21: 1-2, After this Jesus revealed himself again to the disciples by the Sea of Tibe'ri-as; and he revealed himself in this way. Simon Peter, Thomas called the Twin, Nathan'a-el of Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zeb'edee, and two others of his disciples were together.”

V.7 “That disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his clothes, for he was stripped for work, and sprang into the sea.”

Vs.10-12 “Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish that you have just caught."
So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three of them; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.
Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." Now none of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord.”

There is much more evidence than this, plus the Early fathers and History itself.

God Bless,
pat/PJM

[bmonk]

Originally Posted by JonathonofOhio

Acts 1 specifically states that it was 40 days that Jesus spent with them while they were staying in Jerusalem prior to his ascension and AFTER his resurrection. It records his ascension in verse 9-11. Then in verse 12-13 it says they went back where they were staying, and lists the apostles and mentions a few others.

I stand by what I said, as there is no reason to believe that the place mentioned in John is different than the place mentioned in Acts.

I don't understand why this matters that other were there though. It doesn't mean that they received the same authority as the Apostles. All Apostles are disciples, but not all disciples are Apostles.

I'm not disputing the place--in fact, I'm assuming it's the same. What I am disputing is that, over the course of 40 days, very likely some persons may have gone, or, more likely come. Therefore the question of who was there at or around the Ascension says little about who was there for the Last Supper, over a month earlier.

[JonathonofOhio]

Originally Posted by bmonk

I'm not disputing the place--in fact, I'm assuming it's the same. What I am disputing is that, over the course of 40 days, very likely some persons may have gone, or, more likely come. Therefore the question of who was there at or around the Ascension says little about who was there for the Last Supper, over a month earlier.

Okay, well I was just pointing that out because it does give you a list of people that were there and mentions others besides the Apostles. I'm sure others came during the 40 days too. I just thought it was good to point out because it at least gives you more of an idea of who was there when Jesus Ascended and the Holy Spirit came, and I'm sure that they were there when he first appeared to them there.

I just don't understand what the point of being concerned about who was there and who wasn't at one point....does it all really matter? The apostles were Jesus' chosen ones, and they were there from day one. If it were important to mention others there, I'm sure the gospel writers would have written it down.

[jcrichton]

Originally Posted by JonathonofOhio

Just read Acts 1. It tells you who was in the upper room. There were definitely others there besides the 11-- Mary was there. It also tells you that it was the Apostles who were given the commandments (instructions). Jesus appeared to them and instructed them for 40 days, but the bible is mostly absent of what all he taught them during this time. Most of the instructions are recorded elsewhere and are passed on through Sacred Tradition. It is definitely quite clear that others were there, but it was only the Apostles that received the instructions that were to be carried out. I'd have to assume that one of the instructions Jesus gave was in regards to apostolic succession since they elected Joseph Barsabbas to replace Judas.

...actually, the list of the Twelve is this one:

2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon who is known as Peter, and his brother Andrew; James the son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who was also his betrayer. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them as follows: 'Do not make your way to gentile territory, and do not enter any Samaritan town; 6 go instead to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. (St. Mattew 10:2-6)

...which is consistent with the list of the Eleven mentioned in Acts:

and when they reached the city they went to the upper room where they were staying; there were Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Jude son of James. (Acts 1:13)

...it is not surprising that as they continue to gather (the Eleven) more and more of the missing rank, with the passing of time, would beging to congregate with them--to the point mentioned on the next verses:

14 With one heart all these joined constantly in prayer, together with some women, including Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. 15 One day Peter stood up to speak to the brothers -- there were about a hundred and twenty people in the congregation, (Acts 1:14-15)

...still, Scriptures keeps coming back to a finite number viewed in a special context:

They then drew lots for them, and as the lot fell to Matthias, he was listed as one of the twelve apostles. (Acts 1:26)

...and though there were many other disciples, Scriptures do not demonstrate that they were included in Jesus' inner most circle; however, there is a direct inferrence that Jesus first gathered with the Eleven:

19 In the evening of that same day, the first day of the week, the doors were closed in the room where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews. Jesus came and stood among them. He said to them, 'Peace be with you,' 20 and, after saying this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples were filled with joy at seeing the Lord, 21 and he said to them again, 'Peace be with you. 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.' 22 After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained. 24 Thomas, called the Twin, who was one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples said to him, 'We have seen the Lord,' but he answered, 'Unless I can see the holes that the nails made in his hands and can put my finger into the holes they made, and unless I can put my hand into his side, I refuse to believe.' (St. John 20:19-25)

...even if one were to surmise that the term "disciples" meant those other than the Eleven then there's that little issue with a large group of disciples hidding in a single area in fear of getting too much attention... a large number of them gathered in a single location would, undoubtedly, bring unwanted attention (consider the fact that only St. John, who was known to the high priest, and St. Peter dared to follow Jesus past His apprehension).

Maran atha!

Angel

[jcrichton]

Originally Posted by JonathonofOhio

Read Acts Chapter 1.

...again, the verses demonstrating a larger group than the Eleven is only after the fact not during the Last Supper nor the period right after the Resurrection!

Maran atha!

Angel

[jcrichton]

Originally Posted by JonathonofOhio

Acts 1 specifically states that it was 40 days that Jesus spent with them while they were staying in Jerusalem prior to his ascension and AFTER his resurrection. It records his ascension in verse 9-11. Then in verse 12-13 it says they went back where they were staying, and lists the apostles and mentions a few others.

I stand by what I said, as there is no reason to believe that the place mentioned in John is different than the place mentioned in Acts.

I don't understand why this matters that other were there though. It doesn't mean that they received the same authority as the Apostles. All Apostles are disciples, but not all disciples are Apostles.

...you may not see the difference but what matters is that Jesus' apprehension and death caused all of His disciples to scatter... logic dictates that only those who were in His close circle would seek each other for both moral support and security... having survived the ordeal and not experiencing an immediate persecution the Eleven, gathered around St. Peter, would become the hub of the rest of Christ's disciples... however, the Commission would be given to those that would be gathered first as they were the ones to whom Jesus would delegate His Authority:

Jesus replied to them, 'Did I not choose the Twelve of you? Yet one of you is a devil.' (St. John 6:70)

I am not speaking about all of you: I know the ones I have chosen; but what scripture says must be fulfilled: 'He who shares my table takes advantage of me. (St. John 13:18)

16 You did not choose me, no, I chose you; and I commissioned you to go out and to bear fruit, fruit that will last; so that the Father will give you anything you ask him in my name. 17 My command to you is to love one another. 18 If the world hates you, you must realise that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you do not belong to the world, because my choice of you has drawn you out of the world, that is why the world hates you. 20 Remember the words I said to you: A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours as well. 21 But it will be on my account that they will do all this to you, because they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come, if I had not spoken to them, they would have been blameless; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Anyone who hates me hates my Father. 24 If I had not performed such works among them as no one else has ever done, they would be blameless; but as it is, in spite of what they have seen, they hate both me and my Father. 25 But all this was only to fulfil the words written in their Law: They hated me without reason. 26 When the Paraclete comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who issues from the Father, he will be my witness. 27 And you too will be witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning. (St. John 15:16-27)

...again... some would say... so what!

...it seems that Jesus did make a very specific distinction between the Twelve/Eleven/Twelve/Thirteen and the rest of the disciples!

Maran atha!

Angel

[jcrichton]

Originally Posted by JonathonofOhio

Okay, well I was just pointing that out because it does give you a list of people that were there and mentions others besides the Apostles. I'm sure others came during the 40 days too. I just thought it was good to point out because it at least gives you more of an idea of who was there when Jesus Ascended and the Holy Spirit came, and I'm sure that they were there when he first appeared to them there.

I just don't understand what the point of being concerned about who was there and who wasn't at one point....does it all really matter? The apostles were Jesus' chosen ones, and they were there from day one. If it were important to mention others there, I'm sure the gospel writers would have written it down.

...but that is exactly what has been stated... Jesus chose only Twelve (well Twelve minus One then plus One then plus One more)... the fact remains that His inner circle did not include all of His disciples and that Scriptures refer to the Twelve/Eleven as His Disciples/Apostles... and it is they who were constantly with Jesus and that it was the Twelve/Eleven who received the Commission to establish His Community...

Maran atha!

Angel

[JonathonofOhio]

I guess I am just looking at this the wrong way? You see, I have never heard of anyone trying to claim that it wasn't the Apostles that Jesus appeared to in the upper room after he rose from the dead-- and I've talked to a lot of other people from different faiths. I think it is possible that others were there, especially Mary since John took her into his care-- that's why I ask why does it matter. To assert that it was just a random group of disciples that had scattered when He died, and that the group listed in Acts 1 is a different group, well, that is just absurd. In order to arrive at that wild idea, one would have to ignore quite a lot of scripture and common sense.

[PJM]

=bmonk;Therefore the question of who was there at or around the Ascension says little about who was there for the Last Supper, over a month earlier.

My freind I fear you are DODGING what is the evident truth

John.2: 1-4; 10-25
"Now on the first day of the week Mary Mag'dalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.So she ran, and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him." Peter then came out with the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb. They both ran, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first;
Then the disciples went back to their homes. But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb; and she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. They said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him." Saying this, she turned round and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom do you seek?" Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away."

Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned and said to him in Hebrew, "Rab-bo'ni!" (which means Teacher). Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." [18] Mary Mag'dalene went and said to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"; and she told them that he had said these things to her. NOTICE HOW THIS FOLLOWS THE ABOVE: On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. READ John 14:16-17
If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." FOLLOWS OT PRACTICE OF USING PROEST FPOR THIS VERY FUNCTION:
READ: Lev.5:13; 6:7... Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe."

God permits us to deny Him and His truth. Who is in attendance here CANNOT be questioned

God Bless,
pat/PJM

[bmonk]

Originally Posted by JonathonofOhio

I guess I am just looking at this the wrong way? You see, I have never heard of anyone trying to claim that it wasn't the Apostles that Jesus appeared to in the upper room after he rose from the dead-- and I've talked to a lot of other people from different faiths. I think it is possible that others were there, especially Mary since John took her into his care-- that's why I ask why does it matter. To assert that it was just a random group of disciples that had scattered when He died, and that the group listed in Acts 1 is a different group, well, that is just absurd. In order to arrive at that wild idea, one would have to ignore quite a lot of scripture and common sense.

I'm shaking my head.

I'm not claiming that it's a different group or that they weren't there. We know the Twelve were there for the Last Supper, which is what joshua_b first asked about. They were also there later, that evening of the Resurrection day, and a week later (both John 20), as well as after the Ascension (Acts 1) We don't know if others were or were not there. Or if it was exactly the same group over all that time. After all, I suspect that others might well have come in that month-plus as the news began to spread.

I'm with you in that I'm not sure that it does matter one way or another--I'm just saying that we cannot know at this point, either from Scripture or from other Traditions.