Are certain people predestined to Heaven? - Page 2

Ubenedictus · #16 May 10, '12, 9:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theophorus

That's not predestination though, as they still had to co-operate with God's grace in order to be saved. God's knows us so well He knows what we will choose, He doesn't make it impossible for us not to choose it-which is what predestination is. No one is automatically bound for heaven or hell.

how do you define it?

Chowmah · #17 May 10, '12, 10:09 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry-Jet

Catholics DO believe in the predestination of the Elect.

Isnt that found in Romans? Is that the elect being taught about there? The gentiles are also mentioned. Aint that us?

De Maria · #18 May 11, '12, 6:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theophorus

No, mary wasn't predestined. It was her total and sustained yes to God(and so to His saving grace) that got her there, she could have chosen to sin had she wanted to.

I choose to look at it another way. We are all predestined to heaven:
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Some men choose not to be.

Both Adam and Eve were also conceived without sin, as Mary was. Yet they sinned. But Mary didn't. We know that all three were predestined for heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Gorgias · #19 May 11, '12, 9:43 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theophorus

That's not predestination though, as they still had to co-operate with God's grace in order to be saved. God's knows us so well He knows what we will choose, He doesn't make it impossible for us not to choose it-which is what predestination is. No one is automatically bound for heaven or hell.

Except that, yeah, that is what predestination is. From the CCC: "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of 'predestination', he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: 'In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.' For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness." (CCC, #600)

fred conty · #20 May 11, '12, 10:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BListon

Were some of the people in the scriptures predestined to heaven from birth according to God's plan? Ex. The Blessed Virgin was concieved without original sin at birth, so she could give birth to the Son of God. Was she also predestined for heaven at birth? Another example, was St. Peter predestined, because God chose to give him the keys to the kingdom? Was this all part of God's pre determined plan?

Here are some references that may help if you are interested. These were in another thread.

St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica on Predestination
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102300.htm

Grace, Free Will, & Predestination
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/files.htm

Book: Salvation Controversy Jimmy Akin
http://shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/S...html?E+scstore

Many good articles on Free Will & Predestination
http://www.monksofadoration.org/freewill.html

Divine Providence is not inconsistent with Freedom of the Will:
http://www.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc3_73.htm

Many excellent articles on free will: Summa Contra Gentiles of Saint Thos Aquinas
http://www.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc.htm

Another discussion
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...24#post7403324

As far as I know the church is open only to some theological explainations.
One of which is outlawed, namely that anyone is sent to hell.

However the discussion is centered on heaven and hell. But I do believe that a certain amount of predestination does take place in this world.

Pharoah's heart was hardened. God used him for his purpose and was predestined to do what he did for that reason. Judas likewise.

It is like I have a group of friends and send one to the store, not all of them, but just one. The rest could go if they want, but I send only one. I believe this is exactly what happens to some in this world who are instruments of God's will. But this does not mean that they are eternally destined to heaven or hell because of their role. That is a different subject.

Just a thought.

TheFollower · #21 May 24, '12, 9:09 am

Catholics should not believe in predestination.

St. Augustine of Hippo wrote a letter about predestination but some monks misinterpreted it. As result, he wrote On Grace and Free Will.

You can read it here:

http://newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

God Bless.

feed me · #22 May 24, '12, 1:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFollower

Catholics should not believe in predestination.

St. Augustine of Hippo wrote a letter about predestination but some monks misinterpreted it. As result, he wrote On Grace and Free Will.

You can read it here:

http://newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

God Bless.

Exactly, that is why you have pastors sinning and teaching people to sin and they will still get into Heaven, because they misquoted the scriptures. Romans 9: 6-24 is where it says that it's Gods free choice to allow who he wants into Heaven or destine them for Hell. That scripture is Gods end all be all scripture on who makes it or doesn't. This scripture gets misquoted alot for evil purposes, but the reality is, those scriptures are producing it's fruit, and thorns.

COPLAND 3 · #23 May 24, '12, 2:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFollower

Catholics should not believe in predestination.

St. Augustine of Hippo wrote a letter about predestination but some monks misinterpreted it. As result, he wrote On Grace and Free Will.

You can read it here:

http://newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

God Bless.

Not sure what you mean, but Catholics should believe in predestination. I assume you mean that Catholics should not believe in the Calvinist interpretation of predestination.

TheFollower · #24 May 24, '12, 2:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by COPLAND 3

Not sure what you mean, but Catholics should believe in predestination. I assume you mean that Catholics should not believe in the Calvinist interpretation of predestination.

Exactly.

TheFollower · #25 May 24, '12, 3:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by COPLAND 3

Not sure what you mean, but Catholics should believe in predestination. I assume you mean that Catholics should not believe in the Calvinist interpretation of predestination.

Exactly.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

God Bless.

COPLAND 3 · #26 May 24, '12, 5:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFollower

Exactly.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

God Bless.

I figured, just didnt want you to be misunderstood by others.

InJesusItrust · #27 May 25, '12, 12:11 am

Here is a neat article: http://vivacatholic.wordpress.com/20...n-catholicism/.

Not all forms of predestination are Calvinism. We could argue that Judas was predestined to err, but not because of God ordaining it but because of the hardness of his heart. Judas had to err for scripture to be fulfilled but he erred by the hardness of his heart. This is a possible explanation if I am understanding this article correctly.

I also read about some saints on who it was revealed were chosen to be victim souls by God.

Oh, and I also thought about God acting His will through the gentile King Cyrus in the Old Testament.