Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

[CMatt25]

Originally Posted by InSearchofGrace

CMatt, it would seem that somewhere sometime, notwithstanding your Catholic upbringing by your good mother, a development and/or decision led you far enough away from true understanding of several core teachings of the faith. And yet, it seems important for you to hang out here at CAF spending so much time knowing that your current beliefs and values are not compatible with the Catholic faith. Why? What are you trying to achieve or prove?

InSearch, I just a bit ago responded to a Catholic who asked why Catholics stick around if they are miserable (his word not mine) instead of leaving for another faith community. I have no idea what tomorrow might bring but in the meantime would you mind if I ask you to search for my answer there so I don't have to duplicate a post. I appreciate it. Thanks.

I'm not trying to prove or achieve a thing. I'm just here to discuss different beliefs is all. Have met a few nice people too.

[InSearchofGrace]

Originally Posted by CMatt25

InSearch, I just a bit ago responded to a Catholic who asked why Catholics stick around if they are miserable (his word not mine) instead of leaving for another faith community. I have no idea what tomorrow might bring but in the meantime would you mind if I ask you to search for my answer there so I don't have to duplicate a post. I appreciate it. Thanks.

I'm not trying to prove or achieve a thing. I'm just here to discuss different beliefs is all. Have met a few nice people too.

Ok, here is that post

Originally Posted by CMatt25

Maybe fewer would stick around if they weren't indoctrinated with the belief that they are Catholics by virtue of their Baptisms. And were not put in fear of the possibility of eternal damnation if they left and did not repent. So these things weigh on their minds in the meantime while they are "sticking around". No one anyway knows another's heart or when they might repent other than God. Also perhaps if the Catholic Church Herself didn't give the answer that they are Catholic. Hope that helps.

So, the reason you are half in and half out of the Catholic Church yourself is the fear that you may be wrong, as you suspect with many protesting Catholics, Catholics in name only or by virtue of baptism, rejecting teachings on a number of non-negotiable issues, disobedient to the Magisterium, making a claim nevertheless to being Catholic at the same time giving scandal in various degrees and circumstances.

CMatt, make up your mind. You spend so much time analyzing and discussing the doctrines and disciplines to which you don't assent, making a justification that you are exercising your conscience that you, if I am not mistaken, claim to be well (in)formed.

Even with our God, ever forgiving with true repentance, God of reason and justice, you likely recognize that mitigation vis-à-vis invincible ignorance is good up to an extent.
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[CMatt25]

Originally Posted by InSearchofGrace

So, the reason you are half in and half out of the Catholic Church yourself is the fear that you may be wrong, as you suspect with many protesting Catholics, Catholics in name only or by virtue of baptism, rejecting teachings on a number of non-negotiable issues, disobedient to the Magisterium, making a claim nevertheless to being Catholic at the same time giving scandal in various degrees and circumstances.

CMatt, make up your mind. You spend so much time analyzing and discussing the doctrines and disciplines to which you don't assent, making a justification that you are exercising your conscience that you, if I am not mistaken, claim to be well (in)formed.

Correct In Search. I strive to follow my informed and my formed conscience. I am a believer not lukewarm but with belief on fire for Whom I believe is God my Creator and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But my mind was made up long ago that there is a difference between someone believing or thinking they know the truth vs actually knowing with 100% absolute certainty what the one truth is. I'd believe the same thing if I moved to another faith community if that is what you would like me to do.

[LisaA]

Originally Posted by InSearchofGrace

The law, good or bad (we know bad laws have indeed been passed), is instructive, and legalized gay 'marriage' inevitably leads to unfettered indoctrination of children and challenge of first amendment rights down the road where teaching a long held unchanging belief and eternal truth, would be regarded as hateful. Already, there are signs that such are taking place in Massachusetts and Canada.

All in the name of indifferentism and pluralism to which you subscribe.

May God bless you and the Holy Spirit lead YOU BACK to the correct path.
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Really good points, thank you for bringing this up. Although the proponents of SSM have yet to provide the slightest evidence of a public benefit for redefining marriage, it is clear that laws purporting to give more rights to one group have a chilling effect on other groups.

There are already a number of cases making their way through the courts of appeals where homosexuals targeted businesses they knew to be Christian and then demanded that those businesses provide services to them that were against their faith. One was a wedding photographer who was asked to photograph a homosexual couples commitment ceremony. She said this was not something she was comfortable with doing and offered the names of several other photorgraphers. She was sued and at least at the lower level, she lost! This is a private business, not a public service. Another more recent case was a small B&B operated by a Christian couple who indicated on their promotional material that they only accepted married couples. Two homosexuals came and made a big point that they were life partners and wanted to rent a room. The couple said they had a policy of only allowing married couples and again offered some alternatives near by. They were sued and lost! Again being appealed but clearly the lower courts see the refusal of a private business to accept customers they do not want as some kind of discrimination.

Is this what we want to happen in our country? It is my understanding that a minister in Canada who speaks against homosexuality or even reads a related Bible passage could be charged with a hate crime.

As I heard Cardinal Dolan say in a recent interview, marriage is being undermined in the media, by the "shack up" culture and now by the demands that homosexuals pairings be considered equivalent to traditional marriage. Why are we committing moral suicide when there is no compelling reason to accept yet another degredation of this sacrement?

Lisa

[JimG]

Originally Posted by LisaA

Really good points, thank you for bringing this up. Although the proponents of SSM have yet to provide the slightest evidence of a public benefit for redefining marriage, it is clear that laws purporting to give more rights to one group have a chilling effect on other groups.

There are already a number of cases making their way through the courts of appeals where homosexuals targeted businesses they knew to be Christian and then demanded that those businesses provide services to them that were against their faith. One was a wedding photographer who was asked to photograph a homosexual couples commitment ceremony. She said this was not something she was comfortable with doing and offered the names of several other photorgraphers. She was sued and at least at the lower level, she lost! This is a private business, not a public service. Another more recent case was a small B&B operated by a Christian couple who indicated on their promotional material that they only accepted married couples. Two homosexuals came and made a big point that they were life partners and wanted to rent a room. The couple said they had a policy of only allowing married couples and again offered some alternatives near by. They were sued and lost! Again being appealed but clearly the lower courts see the refusal of a private business to accept customers they do not want as some kind of discrimination.

Is this what we want to happen in our country? It is my understanding that a minister in Canada who speaks against homosexuality or even reads a related Bible passage could be charged with a hate crime.

As I heard Cardinal Dolan say in a recent interview, marriage is being undermined in the media, by the "shack up" culture and now by the demands that homosexuals pairings be considered equivalent to traditional marriage. Why are we committing moral suicide when there is no compelling reason to accept yet another degredation of this sacrement?

Lisa

Yes, the types of incidents you recount in your second paragraph will no doubt continue to increase. The homosexual agenda seems to demand complete acceptance of their lifestyle or risk being sued for discrimination. Many many business owners will be at risk of being forced out of business, just as Catholic institutions will be forced out of business by the HHS mandate.

What is rather astonishing is the number of Catholics who say they support homosexual marriage even though it clearly goes against 2,000 years of Church teaching, not to mention going against all of human history. It may be impossible to stop a society bent on destruction, so I am not particularly hopeful about the survival of our present society.

But the whole devolution of marriage had its beginnings in the acceptance of contraception, which has been condemned by the Catholic Church for 2,000 years, and by the protestant churches by all the founding reformers. The protestant churches had the exact same teaching on contraception as the Catholic church for 400 years, up until 1930. Once contraceptive marriage was accepted, all else followed, making homosexual 'marriage' all but inevitable.

[Wiljo2050]

Originally Posted by _Abyssinia

Agree.

Does That Include any Jewish ,muslim,protestant,and church serving human who disagrees with the doctrine of people who made a vow not to start a family,and teach others to grow and multiply in countries like the philipines were most of the children go to the dump to find food.The church needs to come to grips with its many homosexual preists and nuns ,not cutting the church down,I hope they find resolution in this.But the truth will set us all free! I have many faults also.I go to the catholic church,I want it to thrive,but not sure of its current path!Pope,bishops,preists,nuns,.parishne rs we need to look at facts,church needs to make alot of drastic improvements,and with alot of good people inside and outside the church it can be done!

[Wiljo2050]

Originally Posted by JimG

Yes, the types of incidents you recount in your second paragraph will no doubt continue to increase. The homosexual agenda seems to demand complete acceptance of their lifestyle or risk being sued for discrimination. Many many business owners will be at risk of being forced out of business, just as Catholic institutions will be forced out of business by the HHS mandate.

What is rather astonishing is the number of Catholics who say they support homosexual marriage even though it clearly goes against 2,000 years of Church teaching, not to mention going against all of human history. It may be impossible to stop a society bent on destruction, so I am not particularly hopeful about the survival of our present society.

But the whole devolution of marriage had its beginnings in the acceptance of contraception, which has been condemned by the Catholic Church for 2,000 years, and by the protestant churches by all the founding reformers. The protestant churches had the exact same teaching on contraception as the Catholic church for 400 years, up until 1930. Once contraceptive marriage was accepted, all else followed, making homosexual 'marriage' all but inevitable.

[Irishgal49]

Originally Posted by Lokabrenna

Yes I know, that's why I said "if". As far as I know, my brother and sister are heterosexual, and it would be a safe bet to assume that any children I might adopt would be heterosexual (since heterosexuals are the majority) or bisexual, since orientation isn't something a person chooses (you can't catch gayness/lesbianism, you know, or I'd happily catch bisexuality), but there are other possibilities too. They could turn out to be asexual, for instance.

I happily "caught" bisexuality---LOL--obviously I can choose to be with men so I do in order to be conforming to the church's teachings but I could choose either as far as my attraction goes.

[heaintheavy]

Originally Posted by LisaA

Right...I was comparing homosexuals to seriel killers. The point is that no one CHOOSES the cross they bear but to claim that anyone who is engaged in certain behaviors was 'born that way' completely ignores reality.

I am glad you have scientific proof that homosexuality is "deep in their DNA" I am looking forward to your submission to a respected journal. And you received your PhD where? And it's so silly to say well homosexuality must be normal since it's happened from the beginning of time. Well so has murder, rape, child abuse, addictions, depression, schizophrenia and all sorts of other human behaviors. Length of time does not turn abnormal into normal.

And yes if you check the DSM, homosexuality was considered a mental illness until it was voted out in l986....not all that long ago. They renamed it in 1973 and claimed it was a "sexual disorder" and only diagnosable as a mental illness if the person was so distraught by his or her condition that it made normal life impossible.

As to your claim that if only one sibling is homosexual it must be DNA, but in fact you argue against your own point. If it were a genetic condition, then homosexuality would appear more frequently within certain families. Does it?

You might believe by my opposition to SSM that I am a "gay hater" or at best don't know any gays. You would be wrong. I raised and showed horses for about 25 years on a national basis. The majority of male trainers in our breed were gay. I knew them, knew their families, knew their relationships and have very well developed gay-dar. That being said, I never saw homosexuality run in families. It was very well accepted in the industry and I would say very few if any of the gays I worked with had difficulties with their families over their orientation. Brothers and sisters were straight. The only brother sister pair that were both gay were adopted and from completely different gene pools. Coincidence? Maybe.

At any rate why don't you come up with a cogent argument instead of attacking me? You have expressed nothing but opinion.

Lisa

Wow (again).
When someone thinks you wrote an "incorrect" idea, you perceive that as being "attacked"?
Yikes, yikes, and triple yikes.

[InSearchofGrace]

Originally Posted by LisaA

Really good points, thank you for bringing this up. Although the proponents of SSM have yet to provide the slightest evidence of a public benefit for redefining marriage, it is clear that laws purporting to give more rights to one group have a chilling effect on other groups.

There are already a number of cases making their way through the courts of appeals where homosexuals targeted businesses they knew to be Christian and then demanded that those businesses provide services to them that were against their faith. One was a wedding photographer who was asked to photograph a homosexual couples commitment ceremony. She said this was not something she was comfortable with doing and offered the names of several other photorgraphers. She was sued and at least at the lower level, she lost! This is a private business, not a public service. Another more recent case was a small B&B operated by a Christian couple who indicated on their promotional material that they only accepted married couples. Two homosexuals came and made a big point that they were life partners and wanted to rent a room. The couple said they had a policy of only allowing married couples and again offered some alternatives near by. They were sued and lost! Again being appealed but clearly the lower courts see the refusal of a private business to accept customers they do not want as some kind of discrimination.

Is this what we want to happen in our country? It is my understanding that a minister in Canada who speaks against homosexuality or even reads a related Bible passage could be charged with a hate crime.

As I heard Cardinal Dolan say in a recent interview, marriage is being undermined in the media, by the "shack up" culture and now by the demands that homosexuals pairings be considered equivalent to traditional marriage. Why are we committing moral suicide when there is no compelling reason to accept yet another degredation of this sacrement?

Lisa

I echo the lamentations in your post.

About free speech or its curtailment in Canada involving a pastor:

Rev. Stephen Boisson has had to defend himself from a charge of hate speech by homosexual activist Dr. Darren Lund, based on a letter he sent to the editor of Red Deer Advocate in 2002 exposing the homosexual agenda. In 2008, the Commission found the letter to consist of hate speech, ordered Boisson and the Concerned Christian Coalition to stop publishing future remarks disparaging homosexuals, to send an apology to Dr. Lund and pay $5,000. The pastor appealed and the Court of the Queen's Bench overturned the ruling of the Commission in December 2009, finding that Rev. Boisson's letter did not violate the Alberta Human Rights Act . In March 2010, Dr. Lund appealed the Queen's Bench reversal to the Court of Appeal in Alberta. So after nine years and reported cost of defense to $200,000, the case is not over.

Of interest, Jewish journalist Ezra Levant and fierce critic of the Commission re-published the letter that started it all, for which a complaint was filed against Levant. But the Commission dismissed the complaint, and Levant accordingly stated that white, Christian and conservatives are being targeted, that "It's legal for a Jew like me to publish [Boissoin’s letter]. It's illegal for a Christian like Rev. Boissoin to publish it. That's sick."

Lund v Boisson
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[InSearchofGrace]

[con't from previous post]

Human rights complaints were also filed against a Roman Catholic bishop in the diocese of Calgary:

Two complaints were filed with the Alberta Human Rights Commission in March 2005. Both objected to the passages in Bishop Fred Henry's pastoral letter letter of January 2005., that: grouped together "homosexuality, adultery, prostitution and pornography..." and called for governments to use "its coercive power to proscribe or curtail" homosexuality.

Carol Johnson filed the first complaint. She wrote in her letter: "I believe the publication of Bishop Henry's letter is likely to expose homosexuals to hatred or contempt. These remarks are particularly dangerous when made by a person in a position of trust and authority."

Norman Greenfield filed a personal complaint with the Commission. He was allegedly shocked when he found that Bishop Henry had released his name to the press. Complaints to the commission are supposed to be confidential. Greenfield said: "I'm not doing this because anybody in my family is gay, I'm just doing it because what Bishop Henry seems to think he can get away with saying in public against an identifiable group. I think the debate over same-sex marriage has gotten way out of hand, and we need to bring it back to some level of civility. "
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[JimG]

From the previous posts, it seems that freedom of speech is an endangered species in Canada.