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  #121  
Old May 7, '12, 11:20 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post
Yes, it does.
One person thinks they know The Truth, and she wants to stand up for her principles and be a voice for that truth, to use your wording. That's good.
Another person thinks they know The Truth--it's a different truth--and does the same. And that's good, too.
Both rightfully do so.
The problem is when someone else tries to legally keep someone else from living their truth.
Yes, many people think amoral and immorality are harmful to society--I'd say most people think this.
But most people don't think homosexuality is amoral/immoral.
So all I'm saying is...go ahead and voice your truth and be a "witness" as you choose...and let others do the same...but one should not get in the way of someone's right to marry someone that they love just because that is not your truth and your idea of what is immoral.
Speak out all you want, yell it from the rafters, from the rooftops. Go to town with it.
But don't deny other people what they think their rights are when so many others see nothing wrong with it morally.
Others out there honestly believe that organized religion is harmful to society as a whole and yet they are not trying to make it illegal.
Outstanding post. Very well put. Thank you for it.
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  #122  
Old May 7, '12, 11:30 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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Originally Posted by Havard View Post
Minor correction, but according to Snopes it was "The next Republican that tells me I'm not religious I'm going to shove my rosary beads down their throat."
Perhaps the VP is just able to separate his religious faith from his politics and role and duties as a public officeholder in the United States of America better than some. JFK spoke about it many yrs ago. Some people obviously just have an easier time doing it than others.
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  #123  
Old May 7, '12, 11:38 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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Originally Posted by Publisher View Post
That seems to be where the state disagrees with you. Outside of religious reasons, there is no Constitutional reason same sex couples should not receive the same benefits as their opposite sex counterparts....at least for those States which have approved of same sex marriage/unions.....and state by state will follow suit....it becomes a secular Constitutional matter...not religous.

You may hold your religious beliefs...but the State/Government relies on equal protection under the Constitution...not religious beliefs...to determine our "rights".
Exactly and thank God for that. I don't want to live in a religious state. I like living in a free country where people are free to believe as they believe. But where no one religious belief determines the rights of everyone. Thank you for this Publisher. God bless you.
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  #124  
Old May 7, '12, 11:43 pm
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
Exactly and thank God for that. I don't want to live in a religious state. I like living in a free country where people are free to believe as they believe. But where no one religious belief determines the rights of everyone. Thank you for this Publisher. God bless you.
Straw man. It isn't "one religious belief." Not even close.
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  #125  
Old May 7, '12, 11:52 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
Lisa, I think the "tired old saw" is constantly comparing GRANTING rights to same-sex couples as equivalent to REMOVING rights by means of slavery and, for the unborn child, abortion. Whose individual rights are being REMOVED by granting same-sex couples the right to marry? Allowing slavery and abortion does not exactly follow the principle of "live and LET LIVE," while allowing same-sex marriage can do so.
It is extremely tiring to see apple and orange comparisons. Slavery, the Holocaust, abortion, polygamy seem to be popular go to issues here though in an attempt to do so.
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  #126  
Old May 8, '12, 12:06 am
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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Originally Posted by rlg94086 View Post
Straw man. It isn't "one religious belief." Not even close.
Just as I'm sure people who lack faith hold different views on the matter, so do people of faith. It is one religious belief shared by some faiths and there are other faiths including of the Christian faith which hold a different belief on the topic. That's why as I think it was Publisher who explained that religious belief can not dictate rights.
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  #127  
Old May 8, '12, 12:12 am
oldcelt oldcelt is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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That's why as I think it was Publisher who explained that religious belief can not dictate rights.
That's for certain....even a cursory look at history shows that religion is very bad at guaranteeing rights. It's only since the advent of secular society that persecutions have become less common. I, for one, do not wish to return to Salem, Tudor England, Spain under Philip II or any of the other eras when religion had the power to oppress people of other beliefs.

John
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With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan..
Abraham Lincoln
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  #128  
Old May 8, '12, 12:13 am
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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Originally Posted by Et Cetera View Post
I'm comfortable with it too. Some very offensive things have been said about homosexuals in this thread. One of my best friends is gay, and if he were to read the replies in here, it would hurt him, I believe. The more I read responses here, the more I am glad that I left the Church. Where has the love and compassion gone? Please, do not compare gay marriage to incestuous or bestial relationships. It is rude and 100% lacking in logic.

Also, this country is not a Catholic theocracy, which some here don't seem to understand. Honestly, for every nice person I meet here, I encounter ten belligerent, rude ones. What am I even doing here?
I agree with much of this, Et Cetera, and I have no idea where the love and compassion have gone.
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  #129  
Old May 8, '12, 12:29 am
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
Just as I'm sure people who lack faith hold different views on the matter, so do people of faith. It is one religious belief shared by some faiths and there are other faiths including of the Christian faith which hold a different belief on the topic. That's why as I think it was Publisher who explained that religious belief can not dictate rights.
Again with the straw man. But, that said, I do agree that those on the left do net let their faith interfere with their political viewpoints....
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  #130  
Old May 8, '12, 12:31 am
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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Originally Posted by oldcelt View Post
That's for certain....even a cursory look at history shows that religion is very bad at guaranteeing rights. It's only since the advent of secular society that persecutions have become less common. I, for one, do not wish to return to Salem, Tudor England, Spain under Philip II or any of the other eras when religion had the power to oppress people of other beliefs.

John
As someone whose direct ancestor was the last one hanged in Salem, I can confidently say that you have a complete misunderstanding of what pluralism means in the United States. There is no one calling for a theocracy. Our faith is supposed to form our consciences, which directs us in our voting. Don't abandon your faith in the public square.
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  #131  
Old May 8, '12, 12:41 am
oldcelt oldcelt is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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As someone whose direct ancestor was the last one hanged in Salem, I can confidently say that you have a complete misunderstanding of what pluralism means in the United States. There is no one calling for a theocracy. Our faith is supposed to form our consciences, which directs us in our voting. Don't abandon your faith in the public square
My condolences to your ancestor, but that has no bearing on my understanding of pluralism. You say that no one is calling for theocracy....it doesn't take a theocracy for one religious group to persecute another...it takes only the undue influence of one type of faith over another without secular restraint.....the separation.

Our beliefs, or faith, do form our conscience....this is true of all people, but I am of the opinion that "Faith" has become as much a political tool in this nation as anything that is conscience forming....and that nauseates me. I long for the days when faith was a more private matter, not a political talking point.

John
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With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan..
Abraham Lincoln
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  #132  
Old May 8, '12, 12:45 am
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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Originally Posted by oldcelt View Post
My condolences to your ancestor, but that has no bearing on my understanding of pluralism. You say that no one is calling for theocracy....it doesn't take a theocracy for one religious group to persecute another...it takes only the undue influence of one type of faith over another without secular restraint.....the separation.

Our beliefs, or faith, do form our conscience....this is true of all people, but I am of the opinion that "Faith" has become as much a political tool in this nation as anything that is conscience forming....and that nauseates me. I long for the days when faith was a more private matter, not a political talking point.

John
Indeed. So, as I said, you don't believe in letting your faith get in the way of your political viewpoints. In fact, the teaching of the Catholic Church regarding civil unions and Gay "Marriage" apparently "nauseates" you. How sad.

Please don't pretend to take the moral high ground on other political issues. If you are going to advocate divorcing Faith from politics, then you need to be consistent.
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  #133  
Old May 8, '12, 12:58 am
oldcelt oldcelt is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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Indeed. So, as I said, you don't believe in letting your faith get in the way of your political viewpoints. In fact, the teaching of the Catholic Church regarding civil unions and Gay "Marriage" apparently "nauseates" you. How sad.
I never said that the churches position nauseates me.....more that I don't trust people who, as my devout parents would say...."wear their religion on their sleeve."

The Church position on Gay Marriage is clear....on civil unions it is less definite. I oppose Gay Marriage, but have no problem with civil unions which, by their very name are non-sacramental.

Quote:
Please don't pretend to take the moral high ground on other political issues. If you are going to advocate divorcing Faith from politics, then you need to be consistent.
Wasn't aware I was doing that since I specifically used the word opinion....nor did I at any point advocate divorcing faith from politics....I just contend that many are using faith talk for political gain.

John
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With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan..
Abraham Lincoln
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  #134  
Old May 8, '12, 1:03 am
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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Originally Posted by oldcelt View Post
I never said that the churches position nauseates me.....more that I don't trust people who, as my devout parents would say...."wear their religion on their sleeve."

The Church position on Gay Marriage is clear....on civil unions it is less definite. I oppose Gay Marriage, but have no problem with civil unions which, by their very name are non-sacramental.
The Church's position on civil unions is clear. Links have been posted in this very thread. You should check it out. Someone else claimed a different "interpretation," but he was unable to provide one. Perhaps, you can explain the way you interpret the clear statements that there is no distinction between civil unions and "gay marriage." Please do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcelt
Wasn't aware I was doing that since I specifically used the word opinion....nor did I at any point advocate divorcing faith from politics....I just contend that many are using faith talk for political gain.

John
You are concerned that many use "faith talk" for political gain...when they disagree with you. I've read posts by you and CMatt25 use "faith talk" in support of your political positions. So...is it okay to support political viewpoints with "faith talk," or is that only acceptable on topics you agree on?
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  #135  
Old May 8, '12, 1:23 am
oldcelt oldcelt is offline
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Default Re: Biden: I'm 'absolutely comfortable' with gay marriage

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The Church's position on civil unions is clear. Links have been posted in this very thread. You should check it out. Someone else claimed a different "interpretation," but he was unable to provide one. Perhaps, you can explain the way you interpret the clear statements that there is no distinction between civil unions and "gay marriage." Please do so.
According to the statement on HB 437 found on the Diocese of Manchester’s website:

Quote:
“The Diocese of Manchester consistently has opposed legislation that would establish civil unions. However, the proposed amendment to HB 437 falls into a category of legislation which the US Bishops have previously considered: bills in civil law which may not reflect the fullness of the Church’s teaching, but which nonetheless provide an “incremental improvement” in the current law and a “step toward full restoration of justice.” (USCCB, Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship, 32)”
http://newwaysministryblog.wordpress...iage-equality/

Quote:
Since 2009, New Hampshire state records show that 1,861 same-sex couples had obtained marriage licenses through the end of January. Bates’ bill would not invalidate those legal marriages, but would allow same-sex couples to enter into civil unions moving forward.
The Diocese of Manchester in New Hampshire has thrown its support behind Bates’ bill, though it would restore the civil unions that same-sex couples in New Hampshire received before the 2009 law. The diocese said the bill was an “incremental improvement” toward the goal of the “full restoration of justice” and urged Catholics to contact their local representatives.
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news...#ixzz1uGQ0paVA

Quote:
December 1, 2011 (LifeSiteNews.com) - According to The Tablet, the Archbishop of Westminster, England, has publicly expressed support for homosexual civil unions, a move that appears to put him at odds with a clear Vatican decree against supporting such unions confirmed by Pope John Paul II and then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) in 2003.
It would seem that there are cracks in the absolutes on Civil Unions. These are just the few I got rather quickly. I am aware of the statements of John Paul II, but the practice within the church as a whole seems less definite.

On your other contention, I guess we have a very different definition of faith talk.

John
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With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan..
Abraham Lincoln
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