Do We Have to Sing Along During Mass? - Page 12

sacredcow · #**166** May 10, '12, 10:24 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

My old parish erupts into applause after every single Mass. It is disturbing and instigated by the priest.

I refuse to participate. The musicians are giving back to God what belongs to Him, they don't need applause, certainly not RIGHT AFTER Mass. Ugh.

But, why does expressing gratitude disturb you? Jesus himself encouraged spontaneous praise and gratitude. St. Paul in his writings frequently expresses thanks and gratitude with words for things his friends have done, right there in sacred Scripture. In Nehemiah, God's Word goes on for npage after page naming specific people and how they helped rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. I disagree with you tha people do not need appreciation. Jesus Himself complimented his followers on many occasions. Expressing appreciation is biblical and is at the heart of Christian disposition.

I think singing along at Mass, which is the core of this thread, is itself ultimately an act of gratitude as well as praise. If Jesus and the Bible are OK with expressions of gratitude along with praise, why should we not be?

nickybr38 · #**167** May 10, '12, 2:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacredcow

But, why does expressing gratitude disturb you? Jesus himself encouraged spontaneous praise and gratitude. St. Paul in his writings frequently expresses thanks and gratitude with words for things his friends have done, right there in sacred Scripture. In Nehemiah, God's Word goes on for npage after page naming specific people and how they helped rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. I disagree with you tha people do not need appreciation. Jesus Himself complimented his followers on many occasions. Expressing appreciation is biblical and is at the heart of Christian disposition.

I think singing along at Mass, which is the core of this thread, is itself ultimately an act of gratitude as well as praise. If Jesus and the Bible are OK with expressions of gratitude along with praise, why should we not be?

Applause after each and every mass is not spontaneous. Applause for the musicians, alter servers, priest (yes, the priest asks that we applaud him as well) and every single person who helped with Mass in anyway is not appropriate. It is habit and soon the musicians will expect it (as will everyone else). I think it sets people up for falling into all kinds of sinful mannerisms and it's harmful more then helpful. In my opinion.

Singing in gratitude to God? Singing praise to God? That's what Mass is SUPPOSED to be about. Not praising each other.

liturgyluver · #**168** May 10, '12, 3:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

My old parish erupts into applause after every single Mass. It is disturbing and instigated by the priest.

I refuse to participate. The musicians are giving back to God what belongs to Him, they don't need applause, certainly not RIGHT AFTER Mass. Ugh.

Might I suggest that your parish is most unusual. I have attended mass in many countries and never encountered applause immediatly after mass - in most churches everyone is out the door hot on the heels of the recessional procession. The only exception is after a long and intricate Organ Voluntary in a Cathedral when the organist was applauded, but of course this was about 10 minutes after mass and the only person remaining was the Organist.

triumphguy · #**169** May 10, '12, 3:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

Applause after each and every mass is not spontaneous. Applause for the musicians, alter servers, priest (yes, the priest asks that we applaud him as well) and every single person who helped with Mass in anyway is not appropriate. It is habit and soon the musicians will expect it (as will everyone else). I think it sets people up for falling into all kinds of sinful mannerisms and it's harmful more then helpful. In my opinion.

Singing in gratitude to God? Singing praise to God? That's what Mass is SUPPOSED to be about. Not praising each other.

I thought you said mass was over?

And maybe it's thanking rather than praising?

Also, might not this gesture of the priest's may point to strengths he has a pastor rather than faults he has as a liturgist?

Just out of interest name some of his strengths and gifts as a priest.....

triumphguy · #**170** May 10, '12, 3:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by liturgyluver

Might I suggest that your parish is most unusual. I have attended mass in many countries and never encountered applause immediatly after mass - in most churches everyone is out the door hot on the heels of the recessional procession. The only exception is after a long and intricate Organ Voluntary in a Cathedral when the organist was applauded, but of course this was about 10 minutes after mass and the only person remaining was the Organist.

So who applauded the organist? Him/herself?

lampstand · #**171** May 10, '12, 3:28 pm

I like to sing.

nickybr38 · #**172** May 10, '12, 3:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by triumphguy

I thought you said mass was over?

And maybe it's thanking rather than praising?

Also, might not this gesture of the priest's may point to strengths he has a pastor rather than faults he has as a liturgist?

Just out of interest name some of his strengths and gifts as a priest.....

He is an interesting homilist.

He is unafraid to speak truth.

He is very warm and welcoming.

The applause thing may be a reflection of the warmer side of him but honestly it comes off as... show-boating. He is also sending mixed messages because on the one hand he has told the music ministers that he feels that they are putting on too much of a performance... and yet at the end of Mass he is applauding them. Really? Isn't that a mixed message?

Furthermore, when he asks US to applaud HIM for what he's done up there... well, that's when he just comes off as crossing a major line.

I don't like it. I never will and I'm very glad it's not my parish anymore.

All that said this is really off topic and I'm sorry OP for derailing things. Someone had mentioned never hearing applause at Mass and I just thought I'd be one of those people who goes: Oh! I've heard it... more then once...

nickybr38 · #**173** May 10, '12, 3:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by liturgyluver

Might I suggest that your parish is most unusual. I have attended mass in many countries and never encountered applause immediatly after mass - in most churches everyone is out the door hot on the heels of the recessional procession. The only exception is after a long and intricate Organ Voluntary in a Cathedral when the organist was applauded, but of course this was about 10 minutes after mass and the only person remaining was the Organist.

That sounds... interesting. I think the parishes I have seen ARE the exception because only half the church clears out before the priest is officially out in the foyer. Everyone else waits until the last song is over.

The applauding happens prior to the final dismissal so everyone is generally still there. I suppose Mass isn't OFFICIALLY ended at that point... I think of it as done but there is that final blessing yet to come.

triumphguy · #**174** May 10, '12, 3:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

He is an interesting homilist.

He is unafraid to speak truth.

He is very warm and welcoming.

The applause thing may be a reflection of the warmer side of him but honestly it comes off as... show-boating. He is also sending mixed messages because on the one hand he has told the music ministers that he feels that they are putting on too much of a performance... and yet at the end of Mass he is applauding them. Really? Isn't that a mixed message?

Furthermore, when he asks US to applaud HIM for what he's done up there... well, that's when he just comes off as crossing a major line.

I don't like it. I never will and I'm very glad it's not my parish anymore.

All that said this is really off topic and I'm sorry OP for derailing things. Someone had mentioned never hearing applause at Mass and I just thought I'd be one of those people who goes: Oh! I've heard it... more then once...

hmmm....

**ProVobis** · #**175** May 10, '12, 4:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacredcow

That being said, I would suggest the following formula: the more off key you are, the softer you should sing.

There may be some truth to this. I say this because I used to notice this occurring when the organist goes into increasing dissonance, especially by the time he gets to the third and fourth verses. They train them this way but I wonder if they realize that by the use of disharmonic chords and other embellishments it confuses more than helps the congregation.

littlenothing · #**176** May 10, '12, 5:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by lampstand

I like to sing.

I do too!

Cat · #**177** May 10, '12, 6:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

There may be some truth to this. I say this because I used to notice this occurring when the organist goes into increasing dissonance, especially by the time he gets to the third and fourth verses. They train them this way but I wonder if they realize that by the use of disharmonic chords and other embellishments it confuses more than helps the congregation.

You're right, that's the way organists are trained. I've been taking lessons from a wonderful teacher (Ph.D) since last August, and I'm currently working on a hymn exam (which I don't expect to be ready to attempt for many many months). Yes, we learn to do all the chords, embellishments, etc, and it sounds great (at least when he does it--I still sound pretty rough on the pipe organ--pedals are just not easy for me to do)..

Interesting--when my teacher plays this way for his Lutheran church, it doesn't confuse the congregation at all. I think this is because Lutherans are trained from birth on the proper way to join in the singing during the church worship service. I also think it's because many Lutherans truly love to sing.

Congregational music is a cooperative effort between the congregation and the musicians. When people opt out of singing every song that they don't personally like, that negates the "cooperative" aspect. It's no surprise that Catholics have such a difficult time with "congregational singing." Music requires "practice," and when people refuse to practice, it's going to sound pretty crummy. And when you get a really good organist or pianist up there who is trying like a scout to do their part in the cooperative effort, but the people refuse to do their part, then of course it sounds rather like a one-man or one-woman show. Don't blame the organist or pianist! He/she is only doing what they're supposed to do.

nickybr38 · #**178** May 11, '12, 9:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

There may be some truth to this. I say this because I used to notice this occurring when the organist goes into increasing dissonance, especially by the time he gets to the third and fourth verses. They train them this way but I wonder if they realize that by the use of disharmonic chords and other embellishments it confuses more than helps the congregation.

This is false. If the accompanist leads properly the congregation shouldn't get confused at all. The disharmony and embellishments lead the ear and for the majority of the population (very few are actually, properly tone deaf) it's easy to follow.

But the accompanist MUST do it properly.

**ProVobis** · #**179** May 11, '12, 9:55 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

But the accompanist MUST do it properly.

Define "properly" in the context of dissonance. Just like introductions, this is an art. I've seen people just give up, drop the hymnal, and walk out of church after two verses of the closing hymn. I studied organ myself and quit when they were trying to teach me all those crazy sixths, diminished, etc. chords. I now notice those awful chords even in the first or second verses. It destroys the familiarity of the melody designed to get people to sing IMO.

nickybr38 · #**180** May 11, '12, 10:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

Define "properly" in the context of dissonance. Just like introductions, this is an art. I've seen people just give up, drop the hymnal, and walk out of church after two verses of the closing hymn. I studied organ myself and quit when they were trying to teach me all those crazy sixths, diminished, etc. chords. I now notice those awful chords even in the first or second verses. It destroys the familiarity of the melody designed to get people to sing IMO.

I can't define properly. I've only ever heard it. And I know when I've heard it done properly it just hasn't been a problem.

It's actually quite easy to sing to.

Personally, I enjoy diminished chords and crazy sixths... nothing wrong with them. Sure, it takes hard work to learn them but once they're learned they're rather nice.