Do We Have to Sing Along During Mass? - Page 13

Sarabande · #**181** May 11, '12, 12:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

....The musicians are giving back to God what belongs to Him, they don't need applause, certainly not RIGHT AFTER Mass. Ugh.

I can say as a professional musician who works in both the church music and secular music worlds, the LAST thing I want and most of my colleagues want is applause after mass. We understand that most people applaud to show their appreciation, but we are doing it for God, to spiritually enrich those who use sacred and liturgical music as a part of their prayer and spiritual life and definitely don't want it to be about us. Also, the applause just feeds into this belief by some that musicians are doing it for their own glory, when in most cases, that is totally not the case.

When I've had priests want to applaud the musicians (and I realize they are well-meaning), I just want to run and hide. It's embarrassing. It's completely different when doing music for liturgy. I expect applause when performing an opera, concert, etc., but during the mass? No.

In regards to the topic, I think it is good to make an effort to sing during the mass, especially the responses and part of the mass, but I also understand that sometimes singing can break a person's concentration and prayer, especially those who have no spiritual connection with music whatsoever.

Sarabande · #**182** May 11, '12, 12:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat

You're right, that's the way organists are trained. I've been taking lessons from a wonderful teacher (Ph.D) since last August, and I'm currently working on a hymn exam (which I don't expect to be ready to attempt for many many months). Yes, we learn to do all the chords, embellishments, etc, and it sounds great (at least when he does it--I still sound pretty rough on the pipe organ--pedals are just not easy for me to do)..

Interesting--when my teacher plays this way for his Lutheran church, it doesn't confuse the congregation at all. I think this is because Lutherans are trained from birth on the proper way to join in the singing during the church worship service. I also think it's because many Lutherans truly love to sing.

I agree with you. I'm not an organist, but I've worked with enough trained organists and spoke with enough of them to understand what they are doing. From working in different denominations that use more "traditional" music with the organ, it seems to be more of a "Catholic" problem. The Episcopal and Lutheran congregations I've witnessed where I've been a "ringer" when they hire extra singers or soloists never have a problem singing the hymns with chord embellishments, etc. That said, I think most organists at Protestant churches tend to be better organists than in many Catholic churches, which could also explain why it is more difficult for Catholic congregations . But I have spoken with excellent organists at Catholic churches (some of the best in the city) who purposely do not use the embellishments for Catholic congregations and choirs because they, themselves, have noticed that most Catholics seem to have a difficult time with it. A musician singer wouldn't have the problem, but most people in the congregation aren't musicians. The other thing is that most Catholics weren't "ear-trained" from an early age to hear these organ embellishments while they sing, so it will sound "discordant" and "dissonant", "not right" to them.

White Peony · #**183** May 11, '12, 1:03 pm

"He who sings, prays twice." ~ St.Jerome

nickybr38 · #**184** May 11, '12, 1:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarabande

I can say as a professional musician who works in both the church music and secular music worlds, the LAST thing I want and most of my colleagues want is applause after mass. We understand that most people applaud to show their appreciation, but we are doing it for God, to spiritually enrich those who use sacred and liturgical music as a part of their prayer and spiritual life and definitely don't want it to be about us. Also, the applause just feeds into this belief by some that musicians are doing it for their own glory, when in most cases, that is totally not the case.

When I've had priests want to applaud the musicians (and I realize they are well-meaning), I just want to run and hide. It's embarrassing. It's completely different when doing music for liturgy. I expect applause when performing an opera, concert, etc., but during the mass? No.

In regards to the topic, I think it is good to make an effort to sing during the mass, especially the responses and part of the mass, but I also understand that sometimes singing can break a person's concentration and prayer, especially those who have no spiritual connection with music whatsoever.

Phew. I was beginning to think no one understood my complaint.

I too am a musician and I long ago opted not to participate in music ministry at the parish where the applause happens. I'm just not comfortable with it. Thankfully my parish hasn't picked up this custom so I can participate fully without any concerns of being singled out after Mass.

And back to the topic...

You just said something I hadn't thought of...

Some of us DO have a spiritual connection to music. Some of us are uplifted spiritually, mentally and emotionally when we can actively be part of music...

But we are each given different gifts so there are others who are not touched in the same way.

Funny, I hadn't considered that before.

**ProVobis** · #**185** May 11, '12, 1:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarabande

The other thing is that most Catholics weren't "ear-trained" from an early age to hear these organ embellishments while they sing, so it will sound "discordant" and "dissonant", "not right" to them.

I don't know if you have to be ear-trained per se. Someone who has studied the physics of sound knows how the C-C-G-C-E-G- harmonics come (or don't come) into play here, give or take an occasional 7th. I've heard somewhere that the reason Mozart music is held in high esteem is that it is "mathematically correct." I suppose by that it means it's all pleasing to the ear, though I do understand that many today are drawn to jazz and blues kind of music, which deviates from the classics with its more modern sixths and stuff.

**ProVobis** · #**186** May 11, '12, 1:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

I can't define properly. I've only ever heard it. And I know when I've heard it done properly it just hasn't been a problem.

It's actually quite easy to sing to.

Have you found any youtube examples that could demonstrate your point?

Elizium23 · #**187** May 11, '12, 1:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Peony

"Garble garble." ~ St.Jerome

Ahh, another misquote and false attribution. Someone else debunked it in a recent thread, but I see the concept is rather persistent, so here's the link again.

Father Z explained why St. Augustine did not exactly say this.

nickybr38 · #**188** May 11, '12, 1:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

Have you found any youtube examples that could demonstrate your point?

Sorry. I don't watch YouTube... and I'm not feeling inclined to search out videos just for the purpose of proving my point.

In the end I think this is a subjective matter. Some people think it sounds nice, some people don't. We may as well leave it at that.

**ProVobis** · #**189** May 11, '12, 1:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

In the end I think this is a subjective matter.

To some extent. But an oscilloscope that draws frequencies can demonstrate what's compatible with one's set of eardrums and can be one objective way of measuring one's likes and dislikes when it comes to absorbing certain sound waves. The rest I would leave to psychologists.

nickybr38 · #**190** May 11, '12, 2:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

To some extent. But an oscilloscope that draws frequencies can demonstrate what's compatible with one's set of eardrums and can be one objective way of measuring one's likes and dislikes when it comes to absorbing certain sound waves. The rest I would leave to psychologists.

Haha. I wonder what such a test would say about Screamo music... because I'm pretty sure it's not MEANT to be pleasurable and shouldn't objectively be so and yet many people enjoy it...

Edited to Add: I know that was way off topic. Sorry. I couldn't help myself.

Sarabande · #**191** May 11, '12, 2:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

I don't know if you have to be ear-trained per se. Someone who has studied the physics of sound knows how the C-C-G-C-E-G- harmonics come (or don't come) into play here, give or take an occasional 7th.

That's true. I was really thinking more in terms of the "lay" person sitting in the pews. Certain harmonies, chord progressions, etc. will very easily and automatically be very palatable to a musically untrained person and their untrained ears. And then there are others which aren't as easily accepted by the ear.... unless you have been used to hearing them since an early age, or at least for several years. I find that particularly true with those denominations which regularly "employ" such organ embellishments to their hymns and those congregations have no problems singing the hymns. They are used to it because their ears have been trained.

I sort of liken it to really avant-garde classical vocal music, although it's definitely no where near as difficult. Intellectually, a singer who is also a musician can understand the theoretical relationships of the music, but not all immediately has an ear to "find the line" in the music in order to sing it. Some singers I know who are great musicians won't touch the music because of that. I get hired a lot to sing these modern operatic scores because I've trained my ears to find the line and learn the music. It's not as easy, as compared to vocal music by Mozart, for instance, which I immediately find much more enjoyable, pleasing and spiritually uplifting (although it is deceptively difficult in terms of the vocal line being so naked and needing a rock solid technique to sing it well). The modern music I mostly find enjoyable in a challenging, analytical sense, which, truthfully, is not so fulfilling to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

I've heard somewhere that the reason Mozart music is held in high esteem is that it is "mathematically correct." I suppose by that it means it's all pleasing to the ear, though I do understand that many today are drawn to jazz and blues kind of music, which deviates from the classics with its more modern sixths and stuff.

Yes, I've read the same, and have learned the same in regards to Bach's music. Although, with some of his music, it has been said that the next logical step would have be Hindemith, which, to the untrained ear, can sound really cacophonous. I'm no genius in music theory, as I lean more towards the intuitive and emotional as a musician, so who knows.

Sarabande · #**192** May 11, '12, 2:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

To some extent. But an oscilloscope that draws frequencies can demonstrate what's compatible with one's set of eardrums and can be one objective way of measuring one's likes and dislikes when it comes to absorbing certain sound waves. The rest I would leave to psychologists.

That would be really interesting to see on paper. Could it help explain in some way why some people would be more moved to sing a certain song?

exoflare · #**193** May 11, '12, 2:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Peony

"He who sings, prays twice." ~ St.Jerome

Sarabande · #**194** May 11, '12, 2:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

And back to the topic...

You just said something I hadn't thought of...

Some of us DO have a spiritual connection to music. Some of us are uplifted spiritually, mentally and emotionally when we can actively be part of music...

But we are each given different gifts so there are others who are not touched in the same way.

Funny, I hadn't considered that before.

It's all kind of fascinating when you think about it, especially now that I consider the whole idea of sound frequencies. I just finished reading a biography on Catherine the Great. She apparently could not stand any kind of music whatsoever. It literally all sounded like noise to her and tortuous to listen to, when most people found the music beautiful. I know there are people today who hear music in the same way and probably are "tortured" when they either hear music or have to sing. It really would be a penance for them, I assume.

**ProVobis** · #**195** May 11, '12, 4:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarabande

That would be really interesting to see on paper. Could it help explain in some way why some people would be more moved to sing a certain song?

Could be. They could have done the same for citar music, but I know that they've done studies on certain Sanskrit sounds and its effects on one's nervous system. Transcendental Meditation techniques, for example, assign these as mantras, different depending on the person. However, I'm not a TM teacher so I don't know how they select the mantra. The explanations of how we are moved to certain songs are endless. I'm glad you as a musician are interested in such a study.