Salvation for Non-Catholics

[grandfather]

Originally Posted by chosen people

So would it therefore be fair to say that at least some Christians believe, that if Hitler in his last moments of life was truly repentant and accepted Jesus into his heart, then he would be forgiven and go to heaven, while his six million innocent victims would not go to heaven because they were Jews?

Catholics believe that we do not know the fate of individual souls. If we were to hazzard a guess on Hitler's place in eternity he does not have much of a chance of escaping eternal damnation, but we don't know for sure. He was the enemy of God, the enemy of religion, the enemy of life. He targeted Jews and others for destruction.

We believe Jesus offered His life as sacrifice for all mankind. The animal sacrifices of the Levitical priesthood prefigured that of Christ the eternal high priest. He told His followers to take up our crosses and follow Him, become sacrifice. If we do not He says we are not worthy of Him, fit to be His disciples, followers.

The short version of what this means is I have to be willing to give my life for your salvation, or any of the six million Jews Hitler killed, or a person I would by nature hate, my enemy and yours.

He commands us to love our enemies.

Regarding Jews and the death of Jesus we believe He died to redeem us from sin. So it is my sins that caused His passion and death. The Jews and Roman soldiers were my agents. They acted on my behalf. I caused it, but so did you. We are in the same boat.

We believe there is a heaven, a place where joy is so great that we can not imagine it. We believe there is a hell, a place where the pain is so great we can not imagine it. Both are eternal. The prospect of hell is so horrible that we could not wish it on anyone. We beg God for mercy for all including those who hate us.

Our sins, the evil we all do can not be forgiven by God unless we forgive others.

We see the religion of the Jews as true religion, as opposed to Islam, Hinduism, etc. We believe the God of all creation revealed Himself to the Jews in a series of covenants and miracles made by God between real historical people who ALL were Jews, not only for their good, but for the eventual good of all mankind. Salvation is of the Jews. Jesus said that.

These convenants God made are expanding in scope. The first is with a man and a woman. The next is with Noah and family. The next is with Abraham and his clan. The next is with twelve tribes. The next with David and the nation of Israel. The final is with all mankind, but it all comes through the Jews and they are all connected.

The apostle Paul wrote that in the end all Israel will be saved. I don't know what that means. What I hope it means is that every single Jew who ever lived ends up in heaven. We hope and pray for mercy for all.

Whenever we confront Infinity we encounter mystery, things that are beyond our finite minds ability to comprehend. This means we can not understand everything God does. It does not mean we can have no understanding at all. It means we can not understand everything. There are things that are beyond us. Jesus said to His apostles, "There is much I would like to tell you, but you can not bear it yet". Our understanding has limitations.

The holocaust is a mystery. I speculate that it conformed the Jewish people to the image of Christ crucified. It made them like Him, acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. It made those who are His people by blood, participants in His redemptive work, the mystery of salvation. This is my wild speculation. I do not know this for certain. It is only findable in mystery. "In the end all Israel will be saved".

We do believe in deathbed conversions. I know personally of some that seemed miraculous, one of a man who was an atheist all his life. Only God can judge the soul. Only God knows the secret of a soul. If you repent of your sins God can not not forgive you. He can not refuse mercy to a penitent soul. This is part of the covenant, the promise God made.

In these covenants God swears an oath in His holy name. This covenant He made to forgive us our sins is made in the blood of Christ, His self-sacrifice. There He is saying I swear in my own blood that I will not refuse you mercy if you turn from your sins. If you repent and God refuses you mercy it makes Him a liar.

This is prefigured in the sacrifice of animals established by Moses. The guilt and consequences of the sin of the Jew was transferred to the animal. The ritual sacrifice of the animal whose blood was poured out on the altar atoned for the sin of the Jew. The blood of the lamb without blemish painted on the door with the hyssop branch kept the death angel from the Jews.

At the Passover the Jews at the flesh of the sacrificed lamb. They broke bread and drank four cups of the wine of the Passover meal..

The blood of Christ our sacrifice atones for all of our sins, IF we ask for forgiveness and repent. His blood is not on the doors of our houses. It is the wine of the new and everlasting covenant and it is on our lips. It is all findable in the mystery of faith.

[Makko52]

[quote=Jim Dandy;9283746]The Church is the rightful interpreter of the Book entrusted to her by God.
QUOTE]

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeed

Jesus died for everyone. But only few accept/believe that.

Exactly. So if Jesus died for the sins of everyone the Jews are also part of Salvation.

The Church teaches that there are many mystery's to God and how and what he does. We can never truly know his mind because we do not have the mind of Christ.

It is a mystery that may or may not be revealed in our lifetime, it is up to God. But somehow the Jews are indeed a part of the mystery of our Church. And are somehow included in it.

We know this to be true because there is a spiritual tie that links the People of the New Covenant ot the stock of Abraham.

The Holy scripture tells us that Jerusalem did not recognize God's moment when it came.

But Saint Paul also tells us that the Jews remain very dear to God for the sake of the patriarchs, since God does not take back the gifts he bestowed or the choice he made.

Do you see what I am saying.

The Church awaits the day know only to God alone when ALL people will call on One God with one voice and serve him shoulder to shoulder.

The Jews will come back to God, it is happening more and more every single day. There are more Jews in the Church today then yesterday, There will be more next year and the year after.

Someday they will al come back to the Church and we will all be one.

Read what ST Paul said about the wild olive shoot.

If some of the branches were broken off (They were intentionally broken off by God) and you a wild olive shoot were grafted in thier place to share the richness of the olive tree.

The ones broken off were the Jews who rejected Jesus are outside of the Church.

So if this was part of God's plan, and he had broken some off, can he not incorporate them back in?

We are taught to be careful in seeing our faith as superiority over the Jews. Remember they did that to us once also.

And even the others if they do not persist in thier unbelief will be grafted in for Gods has the power to graft them IN AGAIN.

For if you have been cut from what is by nature a WILD olive tree (that is us) and grafted contrary to nature into a cutivated olive branch. How muchmore will these Natural branches be grafted back into thie OWN olive tree. (that is the Jews)

This leads us to believe that the promise is that when the Jews return to the fullness of the faith which is the Church they will be grafted back into what has always been thier own native root, ( they will come home to the Church) and the result will be doubly graced.

That is why it says

Lest you be wise in your own conceits I want you to UNDERSTAND this MYSTERY brethren a hardening has come upon Israel until the FULL number of Gentile COME IN.

Do you see it now. St Paul says thier refusal to accept Christ was for our sake.

Look how in the beginning the gentiles were disobedient to God, but have received mercy because of the disobedience of the Jews.

So they have disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to YOU they also may receive mercy.

Fo God has cosigned all men to disobedinece that he may have mercy upon ALL.

Does any of this make sense to you?

[meltzerboy]

Originally Posted by grandfather

I think most everyone wants to make things better. The question is how do we know what to do that will make things better. I can not attribute evil intent to anyone. In politics there are polar opposites in views or agendas on what to do to make the future better. I assume the parties who promote their ideas mean well. One side says what we should do is have the civil government manage and control all aspects of life. The other side says that is a recipe for disaster. Both are sincere I assume.

Saying the object of life is to do things to make the world a better place is simplistic. You can't do good unless you know what good is. You have to know how to do a thing if you hope to accomplish it.

There are unintended consequences to actions if we don't know how to achieve the goal we seek. People individually and collectively make mistakes, but have nothing but the best of intentions. Not everyone has good intentions. Some people plot evil, but even those who hope to do good often end up making messes.

No one gets married saying I hope this marriage ends up in hatred and divorce. But that happens. The good intention requires the ability to accomplish the goal. In the spiritual life this ability is knowledge that comes through faith, and God's help, or grace.

There are parts of what you say that I agree with. It is true that since we are of different faiths, we may have different criteria for evaluating what doing good means. For Jewish people, the guideline is found in the studying and application of Torah and the interpretations of Torah teaching found in the Talmud. For Catholics, the guideline is in the teachings of Jesus found in the Gospels and the Canon Law of the Church. For other faiths, there are undoubtedly somewhat different criteria and guidelines. Nonetheless, the common effort of all people, regardless of their specific faith, in striving to behave in morally correct ways by means of good deeds and charity toward their neighbors is what we are potentially able to share. My view--and that of Judaism--is that this morally right action, whichever particular form it may take, is what ultimately re-creates a better world. Why is such a re-creation needed at all? According to Jewish belief, G-d intentionally created a slightly imperfect world so that we humans might repair it and, in so doing, become more loving, holier, and closer to G-d and His will.

[Publisher]

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

There are parts of what you say that I agree with. It is true that since we are of different faiths, we may have different criteria for evaluating what doing good means. For Jewish people, the guideline is found in the studying and application of Torah and the interpretations of Torah teaching found in the Talmud. For Catholics, the guideline is in the teachings of Jesus found in the Gospels and the Canon Law of the Church. For other faiths, there are undoubtedly somewhat different criteria and guidelines. Nonetheless, the common effort of all people, regardless of their specific faith, in striving to behave in morally correct ways by means of good deeds and charity toward their neighbors is what we are potentially able to share. My view--and that of Judaism--is that this morally right action, whichever particular form it may take, is what ultimately re-creates a better world. Why is such a re-creation needed at all? According to Jewish belief, G-d intentionally created a slightly imperfect world so that we humans might repair it and, in so doing, become more loving, holier, and closer to G-d and His will.

On this friend, you speak my mind.

[batman1973]

[quote=Makko52;9286212]

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

The Church is the rightful interpreter of the Book entrusted to her by God.
QUOTE]

Agreed! The Bible doesn't belong to the Catholic Church, no matter how bad it's members want to believe that it does.

[grandfather]

[quote=meltzerboy;9288343]

There are parts of what you say that I agree with. It is true that since we are of different faiths, we may have different criteria for evaluating what doing good means. For Jewish people, the guideline is found in the studying and application of Torah and the interpretations of Torah teaching found in the Talmud. For Catholics, the guideline is in the teachings of Jesus found in the Gospels and the Canon Law of the Church. For other faiths, there are undoubtedly somewhat different criteria and guidelines. Nonetheless, the common effort of all people, regardless of their specific faith, in striving to behave in morally correct ways by means of good deeds and charity toward their neighbors is what we are potentially able to share.

Your view is correcty. If we live moral lives good will come of it. We do not know how to do that or what moral lives are without divine revelation. The commandments were revealed to the Jews, not concocted by men. We did not figure it out. We were told.

Today we have nothing but confusion over morality. Think of what Mr. Obama did this week. We no longer know what is moral, because we have rejected the giver of the law and His laws.

My view--and that of Judaism--is that this morally right action, whichever particular form it may take, is what ultimately re-creates a better world.

You are right.

Why is such a re-creation needed at all? According to Jewish belief, G-d intentionally created a slightly imperfect world so that we humans might repair it and, in so doing, become more loving, holier, and closer to G-d and His will.

I never heard that before. It sounds like speculation at best and probably is heresy. God makes nothing imperfect. The world is not slightly imperfect. It is a huge mess and we made it. If the goal is to improve it, we are not on track.

[grandfather]

[quote=batman1973;9288365]

Originally Posted by Makko52

Agreed! The Bible doesn't belong to the Catholic Church, no matter how bad it's members want to believe that it does.

History says you are wrong.

[batman1973]

[quote=grandfather;9288830]

Originally Posted by batman1973

History says you are wrong.

True. The Bible once did belong to the CC. Not anymore. It belongs to God, and His people.

[Jim Dandy]

[quote=batman1973;9288365]

Originally Posted by Makko52

Agreed! The Bible doesn't belong to the Catholic Church, no matter how bad it's members want to believe that it does.

Where were Protestants when the NT was written? When its contents were decided? Who preserved it by laboriously copying it by hand by candlelight over and over again for 1500 years? Where were Protestants for the first 1500 years of Christianity -- and later? Many ecclesial communities look to the 19th and 20th century in the U.S.A. as their beginning date. Luther purloined the Scriptures, separating them from their source, making them stand alone, and making every individual his own interpreter. But God entrusted the Christian Scriptures to the Church. No Church, no NT, and no Bible. It's historical fact.

The NT was written by Catholics, for Catholics, in the heart of the believing, teaching Church, and can only be understood correctly in that context.

I don't criticize Protestants personally for not knowing the history of where we got the Bible. I didn't know it either for all the years that I was a Protestant.

The link for online access to a little book that gives the history of the Bible is not working for some reason, but it's available cheap from Catholic Answers and from Amazon: Where We Got the Bible by Henry G. Graham.

[batman1973]

[quote=Jim Dandy;9289139]

Originally Posted by batman1973

Where were Protestants when the NT was written? When its contents were decided? Who preserved it by laboriously copying it by hand by candlelight over and over again for 1500 years? Where were Protestants for the first 1500 years of Christianity -- and later? Many ecclesial communities look to the 19th and 20th century in the U.S.A. as their beginning date. Luther purloined the Scriptures, separating them from their source, making them stand alone, and making every individual his own interpreter. But God entrusted the Christian Scriptures to the Church. No Church, no NT, and no Bible. It's historical fact.

The NT was written by Catholics, for Catholics, in the heart of the believing, teaching Church, and can only be understood correctly in that context.

I don't criticize Protestants personally for not knowing the history of where we got the Bible. I didn't know it either for all the years that I was a Protestant.

The link for online access to a little book that gives the history of the Bible is not working for some reason, but it's available cheap from Catholic Answers and from Amazon: Where We Got the Bible by Henry G. Graham.

First, The NT was NOT written by, or for Catholics. That is not fact. The NT was compiled by the Catholic church. But, God never intended for His Word to belong to one group. If anything good came from the Reformation, is that it freed the Word from the literal chains that kept it to the pulpits and into the hands of man, as it was intended. I think its kinda funny (in a sad way) that catholics want to try and remind protestants where the bible came from, but then admit a real lack of understanding of the book, If it's yours, as you claim, you should know it better than I.
Sorry if this hurts feelings and seems uncharitable, but it's the truth,

[grandfather]

[quote=batman1973;9288852]

Originally Posted by grandfather

True. The Bible once did belong to the CC. Not anymore. It belongs to God, and His people.

It comes from God. Right?

It is of the Catholic Church. It always will be. It is established by the authority given by God to His Church. That can never change. But when do you think it happened that the Bible stopped being Catholic? Did God break His promise to His Church at some time?

[grandfather]

[quote=batman1973;9289187][quote=Jim Dandy;9289139]

First, The NT was NOT written by, or for Catholics. That is not fact.

Next you will try to tell me it was written by Baptists or Lutherans.

The NT was compiled by the Catholic church. But, God never intended for His Word to belong to one group.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

If anything good came from the Reformation, is that it freed the Word from the literal chains that kept it to the pulpits and into the hands of man, as it was intended. I think its kinda funny (in a sad way) that catholics want to try and remind protestants where the bible came from, but then admit a real lack of understanding of the book, If it's yours, as you claim, you should know it better than I.
Sorry if this hurts feelings and seems uncharitable, but it's the truth,

[/

It is an unfounded opinion.

[meltzerboy]

[quote=grandfather;9288821]

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

Your view is correcty. If we live moral lives good will come of it. We do not know how to do that or what moral lives are without divine revelation. The commandments were revealed to the Jews, not concocted by men. We did not figure it out. We were told.

Today we have nothing but confusion over morality. Think of what Mr. Obama did this week. We no longer know what is moral, because we have rejected the giver of the law and His laws.



You are right.




I never heard that before. It sounds like speculation at best and probably is heresy. God makes nothing imperfect. The world is not slightly imperfect. It is a huge mess and we made it. If the goal is to improve it, we are not on track.

Maybe imperfect is the wrong word; incomplete might be better.

[batman1973]

[quote=grandfather;9289359][quote=batman1973;9289187]

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

Next you will try to tell me it was written by Baptists or Lutherans.

Nope. But, it wasn't written by Catholics. The Old Testament was written or compiled long before then by men moved by God The NT was a compilations of writings by the Apostles or their scribes.(It says it in the Bible. Read it, you'll see it) The CC compiled the book around 397 A.D.

Where does it say that in the Bible?
That there is a statement that shows you've either never read the Bible, or read it that much. But, rather than me telling you, your assignment, if your choose to accept it,is to read the Word and find it yourself. It's in there.


It is an unfounded opinion.

Not unfounded, but, yes, it is my opinion